Reliability comments?
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anymore scientific than "well i have 3 land rovers and they're reliable, so therefore land rovers are reliable"
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From: Portland
Originally Posted by steve c,Mar 16 2005, 12:16 PM
This has been said before, but beware of believing the various "reports." Want to know how man of them collect their data? They send me a 8 page survey and a dollar bill as enticement to fill it out. Very scientific.
The problems (if there is one) is not in the fact that they send you a $1 and a 8 page survey - the problems are most likely to arise from one of the following:
- A biased sample pool (and I have no idea what survey company uses what method for the selection of their sample - but I would guess that the major ones use something close enough to a SRS or no-one will buy their reports)
- The size of the sample (and thus - the margin of error) - once again, I assume that the big companies (JD Power etc...) spend enough money to reach enough people - so even with low participation rate they still get sample sizes in the hundreds - which will lead to small variance and thus low margins of error.
- The wording of the survey questions (and this is actually the hardest one to measure - because the wording needs to be as neutral as possible or you plant bias in the survey results).
In the end - surveys of these sorts are usually rather good indicators of what really happens in the world - they are never 100% accurate - but if you see the same trend repeating itself over a long time in repeating surveys - it is usually a very good indicator. For example - the fact that Hyundai seems to be getting good and improving ratings in multiple surveys over the last 2 or 3 years is a good sign that they really are improving fast. If Brand X seems to be getting tarnished in multiple surveys over 2 - 3 years - there is usually a reason for that.
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From: Lake Stevens, WA
To me reliability is very important, no matter what kind of car it is. Only the "fun to drive" factor rates higher for me. I don't want to spend my hard earned dollars on constant repairs or waste my free time sitting in a service shop waiting rooms.
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From: Canton, MA
Originally Posted by Warren J. Dew,Mar 16 2005, 10:57 AM
For my part, I cared about the reliability of the S2000 because it was going to be my daily driver. For a weekend car, spending several Saturdays working on the car may be almost as fun as spending several Saturdays driving it, but working on the car won't get me to my job.
The problem with getting statistical information is that most sources don't publish reliability data, and those that do may have methodology that doesn't match my needs. When I looked up Consumer Reports' data in December, it showed the S2000 as being more reliable than any other Honda, but its data are based on time, not mileage, so it was skewed by the fact that most S2000s are only driven on weekends. Plus it's based on surveys anyway, so fundamentally they're just asking a bunch of people their opinions, like I could. It was useful, since they ask a lot more people than I can, but it was also useful to come here and hear what some people had to say in detail, rather than just get it lumped into a single number.
I also differentiate between reliability - what percentage of the time the car is spending outside of the shop - and durability - how long the car will last. I haven't found any published durability data at all, so I have to rely on opinions and how many ten or twenty year old cars I see. My conclusion is that the makes that last the longest are not the same as the makes that spend the least time in the shop.
The bottom line is that I find discussion about reliability to be useful. In fact, extra opinions on reliability are more useful than extra opinions about performance. A given car will perform pretty much the same for all its drivers, so one or two opinions on performance may be enough, but maintenance problems vary from car to car, so getting a lot of opinions is more useful for reliability.
The problem with getting statistical information is that most sources don't publish reliability data, and those that do may have methodology that doesn't match my needs. When I looked up Consumer Reports' data in December, it showed the S2000 as being more reliable than any other Honda, but its data are based on time, not mileage, so it was skewed by the fact that most S2000s are only driven on weekends. Plus it's based on surveys anyway, so fundamentally they're just asking a bunch of people their opinions, like I could. It was useful, since they ask a lot more people than I can, but it was also useful to come here and hear what some people had to say in detail, rather than just get it lumped into a single number.
I also differentiate between reliability - what percentage of the time the car is spending outside of the shop - and durability - how long the car will last. I haven't found any published durability data at all, so I have to rely on opinions and how many ten or twenty year old cars I see. My conclusion is that the makes that last the longest are not the same as the makes that spend the least time in the shop.
The bottom line is that I find discussion about reliability to be useful. In fact, extra opinions on reliability are more useful than extra opinions about performance. A given car will perform pretty much the same for all its drivers, so one or two opinions on performance may be enough, but maintenance problems vary from car to car, so getting a lot of opinions is more useful for reliability.
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From: In the heart of the USSA!
Originally Posted by ttb,Mar 16 2005, 02:06 AM
When was the last time somebody said
"I'm going to start buying Ford because my last Honda was so unreliable"
"I'm going to start buying Ford because my last Honda was so unreliable"
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From: Canton, MA
I guess I have been lucky. Through dozens of cars, new and used, I can report that the new and/or slightly used cars I have bought don't spend much time in the shop. As a result of my life time experience, I take a very literal read of the reliability reports. If car A has 20 problems per 100 cars, and car B has 10 problems per 100 cars, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that car B is twice as reliable. But I think about how many times I will have to go to the shop. With car B my chances ar 1 in 10 that I'll go to the shop, with car A it is 2 in 10. There's still a good chance I won't have to go to the shop.
Another issue is the degree of the problem. Someone above thought it was a significant problem to have a bad window switch. I agree with the person who pointed out that the bad window switch qualifies as a problem that they don't really care that much about. Sure, it's a pain, but it isn't like getting stranded.
On that point, let me say that sports car reliability is so much improved today when compared to the 60s and 70s, that I really don't give much weight to the issue when it comes to performance cars. It isn't like I see a broken down Mustang/Corvette/Miata/S2000 on the side of the road every day. And believe me, back in the day, you did see one a day.
In the end, there are just too many interesting performance cars out there to limit my experience to the reliability kings. I for one am not going to my grave without owning a Vette or a 911 just because an MR 2 is more reliable.
Another issue is the degree of the problem. Someone above thought it was a significant problem to have a bad window switch. I agree with the person who pointed out that the bad window switch qualifies as a problem that they don't really care that much about. Sure, it's a pain, but it isn't like getting stranded.
On that point, let me say that sports car reliability is so much improved today when compared to the 60s and 70s, that I really don't give much weight to the issue when it comes to performance cars. It isn't like I see a broken down Mustang/Corvette/Miata/S2000 on the side of the road every day. And believe me, back in the day, you did see one a day.
In the end, there are just too many interesting performance cars out there to limit my experience to the reliability kings. I for one am not going to my grave without owning a Vette or a 911 just because an MR 2 is more reliable.
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From: In the heart of the USSA!
Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Mar 16 2005, 09:52 PM
In the end, there are just too many interesting performance cars out there to limit my experience to the reliability kings. I for one am not going to my grave without owning a Vette or a 911 just because an MR 2 is more reliable.
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Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Mar 16 2005, 08:52 PM
In the end, there are just too many interesting performance cars out there to limit my experience to the reliability kings. I for one am not going to my grave without owning a Vette or a 911 just because an MR 2 is more reliable.
However, having said that, I firmly believe that any car enthusiast should endeavour to own and drive certain automobiles in their lifetime, reliability be damned - a Vette, a Viper, a Porsche, a Mustang ................ and the list goes on.
Of course, let's not forget about an S2000.
