Is there any better large luxury car than the LS430 for less than $60-70K?
 

$60K used to sound like a lot of money, but with SUV's (H2 etc...) selling for $50K+ I mean the Lexus sounds like a bargain.

The 745i and the S Class are costing $10-20K more.

If you're looking for best overall luxury car in that price range, the LS430 is a no brainer. Of course, I would spend a few thousand more and get an M5, but that's me as I'm more interested in sport than luxury.

I like the M5 and 540i but they are mid size and like you said they aren't cheap either.

Q45 Maybe?

CAVEAT - I'm biased towards Lexus. I think they build excellent products at fair prices and give the best ownership experience out there. PERIOD.

However, I'd answer your question with another question. How are you defining "best luxury car"?

If your emphasis is on a smooth ride, rich interior, smooth and powerful motor and a kick ass stereo than I think the answer to your question is "no". However, if you put an emphasis on driving dynamics and are willing to go with slightly less impressive interior dimensions and more NVH (but with greater feedback) than there might be better choices. For example, the 5 series BMW and the Q45 come to mind.

If you are looking simply for luxury, and not a great deal of sportiness, the answer is Lexus, without a doubt. Take it from a guy who has had 18 of them.

I'd wait for the new all aluminum XJ8. It should be in the $60-70K as well.

I had a 1992 LS400 which is now being driven by a family member in Florida. It was the most reliable, comfortable car I ever had. It is a softer feel than a mercedes, bmw or jag, but is solid as a rock. I am told the car is still like new and has had no problems except an AC compressor at 165,000 miles and is still rattle free. The sterio sounds great and if you are not careful on the highway you can be going 95mph and you feel you are going 55mph.

The quality of the product is superior to Honda. Lexus service is second to none, free loaners even for oil changes free pickup and delivery in my case for routine maintainence. for the money the car is a bargin.

Yes, be sure to check out the new Q45! 340hp V8, rear camera, 18's, DVD nav, front and rear heated seats, power reclining rear seats, etc. all stock.

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45/gatling_2.jpg

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45/q_side_circ.jpg

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45/ls_q.jpg

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45/turn.jpg

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45/interior_front.jpg

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45/tire_pressure.jpg

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45..._side_shot.jpg

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45...e_4_q_rear.jpg

My personal Q56 website here with tons of high quality pics and videos:

http://get.to/q45

Looks like the contenders are:

LS430
Q45
XJ

You may find that the XJR will be a little pricey but the NA versions will move too thanks to a curb weight in the range of ONLY 3500lb's!!!!

NS2000X

If it were me, I would not consider the Ford, er... Jaguar. Granted the company has made quantum leaps in quality control in the last few years but its still not anywhere near the league of Infiniti or Lexus. Moreover, most Jag's depreciate like mofo's and you're talking about the first year of a brand new car. The new XJ looks like it will be a markedly improved car over the old but I take that with a grain of salt since the old XJ was long, long, long overdue for a significant re-do.

This may be a really odd car to mention and you would have to buy it used but...... I recently spent part of two days driving a Rolls Royce. I couldn't believe how nice it was to drive. Not a car I'd want to play in the twisties driving but for pure luxury it is great. You could pick up a very nice car from the mid to late 90's with 8,000 to 12,000 miles in that price range. Reliablity and price of repairs could be an issue but damn the cars are nice drivers. On the other hand the LS430 and the Q45 are great cars. For resale I would think the Lexus would be the better choice but I like the Q45 better. Actually if it was me I'd go with the FX45 even though it's an SUV and I don't normally go for SUV's.

$60-70K for a toyota???? Hell No!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NewR
[B]$60-70K for a toyota????

How about a

Mercedes E55 AMG. I think they are around 69K. That is a 1k less than 70K. hehehe :)

Or I can live with an M5. :) . But no way I would pay 70K for a Toyota.:thumbdn:

I think you get more luxury for the price of the LS 430. My parents have a LS 400 and a S class and I prefer the LS 400 over the S. The Mercedes does have a bigger name, but just compare the creature comforts and the LS should contain more than the Benz and Beemer.

True, BUT the Q45 gives you more for your MONEY that any of those two!

That depends on how you define "more".

- The Q has more power but has been slower than the Lexus in some magazine acceleration tests.
- The Q has a "sportier" suspension with bigger wheels and tires but the ride is nowhere near as good as the Lexus. Some would even argue that it isn't necessarily a better handling car because the car seems to be under-damped.
- The Q has traditionally had horrible resale value. That might not be important to some and might be changing but...
- The materials inside the Lexus are much richer than the Q. Again, the LS isn't as sporty but some "luxury" car buyers don't care about that.
- The Lexus is a smoother, softer car to drive (even with the "Euro/Sport" suspension option). That doesn't appeal to me but there's a lot of consumers who have this kind of jack to spend that care more about low NVH and a bad ass stereo than they do about turn in and on center steering feel.
- Finally, Lexus is the gold standard for customer satisfaction. As good as Infiniti is, it can't vouch for that.

Check my earlier posts, I'm not bashing the Q. I'm just reminding you all that the avg. luxury car buyer and certainly the avg. luxury car buyer shopping the LS430 isn't necessarily looking for the same things out of his ride that you and I are.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NewR
[B]

How about a

Mercedes E55 AMG.

The LS isn't a driver's car and is just not FUN to drive. I'm more a true car guy that likes feedback and not being as isolated, that's why I own my S. I still agree no car gives you more (features, luxury, performace, etc.) for the amount of money you pay than the Q does.

I resently test drove the Q45 with all the pkgs. I have to say that I would take it 10 times over my Aunt's LS430. For starters exclusivity, there are just too many LS's around here, second is a techno monster (I love bottons) it drives like a dream and with better tunning you can get more out of the VQ engine. The LS430 although nice it just feels bland. The Q45 stereo is the best I have ever heard in my life. Some reviews agree, but most do give the nod to the ML system in the LS - They are both damn good.

The 2003 Q45 now has a tweaked gears and now pulls the same as the M45 0-60 which was just tested at around 5.8.

My rankings:

1st: Infiniti Q45- Just my opinion, but I think it does nearly everything as well as or better than cars in its class that cost far more. And the styling is fantastic.

2nd: Audi A8- I haven't heard much about the new one but I love the sporty character of the current model and the new one will most likely be even better. A true sleeper!

3rd: Lexus LS430- I'm not a fan of the derivative styling or the limolike character, but this vehicle is amazingly refined, well-built, and competent.

4th: BMW 745i- The rear end is truly repulsive, I-Drive is over-complex, and it seems that this vehicle's sporty character has been diluted. The only thing I really like is the fantastic-looking interior.

5th: Mercedes S430 (closest in price to other cars)- By itself this vehicle is fine but compared to others in its class it looks plain, has some cheap interior bits, is relatively lacking in power, and is complicated to use (COMAND).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NewR
[B]$60-70K for a toyota????

They can be compared, but Lexus will never be Mercedes-Benz or BMW.

They might be great cars, but they are not the best in the world.

So what is "the best in the world"?
Though I'm sure your opinion lays some where in the hordes of MB power monsters.

Enlighten us (me).

NS2000X

Of for the love of God... give me a break.

This kind of ignorant statement is no better than the "Buy 'Merican" or "why drive that jap crap" mentality that you hear/read on Mustang and Corvette forums.

Its too bad that as a group of educated car enthusiasts, we can't be more open minded and logical than this.

Define "best". Then define best at what. There are plenty of awesome cars available to us today. But if you're going to compare a S600 Mercedes to an LS430 and say that Lexus doesn't compare to MB then I call:bs:

Thank God!! Check a recent Consumer Reports or any other objective publication. Every single Lexus was a reccommended purchase whereas only one BMW or Merc was recommended (the 5 series). Sorry, but Lexus is the now the standard for luxury. The Germans had their day and it has passed.

Da Hapa, dbjb,

Nice replies. :)

NS2000X

One car nobody is talking Volkwagen Phaeton. It has gotten pretty good reviews, has a nice 330 hp V8 (with a W12 414 hp option soon) right in the price point, the interior is Audi-esqe.

http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2002049a.gif

Mercedes didn't even make the list. Infiniti is a strong contender here ahead of Lexus for once. Usually Lexus and Infiniti are both in the 1/2 top positions, or vice versa.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Da Hapa
[B]

No offense intended but this is exactly what I was trying to get at with my last post.

Anyone shopping an M5 isn't going to cross shop an LS430 no matter how close their price points are.

Moreover, I'd question your decision making ability based on your response to spending that kind of coin on a "Toyota".

I am very open minded and I speak from experience when I say Mercedes or BMW makes better cars than Lexus.

Having driven cars from all three manufacturers, I can tell you that you do not get the same feeling driving a Lexus as you do a Mercedes for example. You feel like you are driving a tin can, and the feel of driving an expensive car just is not there. It really feels as if you are driving a Camry. The feel of the leather and interior plastics is quite cheap in comparison.

Overall, Lexus are great cars. They are comfortable, they are reliable, and have a lot of luxury for a Japanese car. But Lexus will always be a poor man's Mercedes, as they keep on trying to imitate them. But you know what they say...imitation is the biggest form of flattery.

This chart doesn't mean $hit! CSI index?
according to your chart, they are all below the saturn..:confused:
so the Saturn is the best!!!!:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NewR
[B]

None taken! :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeD
[B]I am very open minded and I speak from experience when I say Mercedes or BMW makes better cars than Lexus.

I prefer the Lexus LS430 out of your choices but that is just my opinion. Resale value, customer service, luxury defined.

Tan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeD
[B]I am very open minded and I speak from experience when I say Mercedes or BMW makes better cars than Lexus.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NewR
[B]

This chart doesn't mean $hit!

Standard for luxury???? what are you smoking???

I bet those who swear and die for their lexus has never owned or even driven the Bimmer or Merc.

God, please forgive them for not knowing what they said. Amen.

By the way, I do have Honda and Toyota. Great little cars :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeD
[B]

Agreed.

Here is the compairison of all the other cars I looked at before making the decision on the Q45. This is my FIRST Infiniti and I've never had one before this. My family and I have always had S class Mercedes.

I almost bought a new 2002 S class.

I came from a '95 S class. Luckily, I bought an extended warranty on the car
that saved me from shelling out over $9k in repairs over 5 years.

Cars I looked at before making my decision:

2002 Mercedes S430: I was very disappointed. The interior felt cheap
compared to my last gen. S class. They really cheapened it. There was too
much plastic, less wood, cheap looking cupholders, cheap feeling storage
bins below the front seats that stick out and hit your legs, etc. The car
drove nice, but there no excitement. It starts at $73k, doesn't have Hid's,
doesn't have a CD changer, and honestly was bare boned. Everything is
optional, of course. If you do get the optional CD changer, it goes in the
TRUNK! Overall, the quality definitely is lacking on the new one.

When they came out with the new body style in 2000, (we've owned S classes
for MANY years) it just could not compare to the previous S classes. We have watched the quality and reliability fade over the years. So, unless you've owned them, it's hard for anyone to understand where I'm coming from. The new S was truly a dissapointment. The S class is NOT what it used to be and does not DRIVE like it the previous generation. The solid tank feel is gone. As I said, I almost bought another new S... At the LAST minute, a friend told me about this new Q45. The closest infiniti dealer is 70 miles away, and I went down there and was totally SHOCKED. It really blew me away. The deal was bacially written up at the Mercedes dealer and I pulled out. After seeing/driving the S, and then seeing/driving the Q, it made the decision clear.

You may also find this interesting on the new S class:
MB quality gone downhill - http://mbspy.bacosys.be/mbquality.htm

Another thing that made my decision even clearer was this site:
www.mercedesproblems.com - If you go there and select S430, you can read
customer complaints on the car. The same ones keep coming up - Navigation
system turning off, on-screen display not working, electronics turning off,
groan from wheels when turning, just to name a few. Then if you select S500,
(same car, just different engine basically) you keep hearing the same
problems repeated. It's just not a reliable car.

2002 LS430: Used to have a 94 LS400. Great car, no problems. The new one just didn't do anything for me. Very similiar to my old one. I wanted something unique this time around the Q surely is.

Audi A8 - Nice car, but a little too conservative/outdated for me. I hear
the new one will be soon.

2002 Jaguar S type: Nice, but too small. I'm still a little weary of their
reliability, even though they have improved. It looked like they shoved a
Ford radio in the dash.

BMW 7 - Nice car, but some of the materials inside are questionable. The new
7's interior is really nice and I liked it much better than the S, but a few
things bothered me. For example, the car I took out had the non clear-coated
wood. It was already scratched up and had small dents in it. This wasn't
very re-assuring. The plastic on the doorsills was already chipped and had
another color under it that was showing though. Things like that shouldn't
happen when a car has only 500 miles on it. It's too bad they just recalled
them all. I think it has potential though.

All in all, I think the new Q45 is one of the best kept secrets for the time being - giving you the most for the money.

http://get.to/q45

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jason B
[B]Here is the compairison of all the other cars I looked at before making the decision on the Q45. This is my FIRST Infiniti and I've never had one before this. My family and I have always had S class Mercedes.

I almost bought a new 2002 S class.

I came from a '95 S class. Luckily, I bought an extended warranty on the car
that saved me from shelling out over $9k in repairs over 5 years.

Cars I looked at before making my decision:

2002 Mercedes S430: I was very disappointed. The interior felt cheap
compared to my last gen. S class. They really cheapened it. There was too
much plastic, less wood, cheap looking cupholders, cheap feeling storage
bins below the front seats that stick out and hit your legs, etc. The car
drove nice, but there no excitement. It starts at $73k, doesn't have Hid's,
doesn't have a CD changer, and honestly was bare boned. Everything is
optional, of course. If you do get the optional CD changer, it goes in the
TRUNK! Overall, the quality definitely is lacking on the new one.

When they came out with the new body style in 2000, (we've owned S classes
for MANY years) it just could not compare to the previous S classes. We have watched the quality and reliability fade over the years. So, unless you've owned them, it's hard for anyone to understand where I'm coming from. The new S was truly a dissapointment. The S class is NOT what it used to be and does not DRIVE like it the previous generation. The solid tank feel is gone. As I said, I almost bought another new S... At the LAST minute, a friend told me about this new Q45. The closest infiniti dealer is 70 miles away, and I went down there and was totally SHOCKED. It really blew me away. The deal was bacially written up at the Mercedes dealer and I pulled out. After seeing/driving the S, and then seeing/driving the Q, it made the decision clear.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Da Hapa
[B]

A little more???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jason B
[B]Here is the compairison of all the other cars I looked at before making the decision on the Q45. This is my FIRST Infiniti and I've never had one before this. My family and I have always had S class Mercedes.

I almost bought a new 2002 S class.

I came from a '95 S class. Luckily, I bought an extended warranty on the car
that saved me from shelling out over $9k in repairs over 5 years.

Cars I looked at before making my decision:

2002 Mercedes S430: I was very disappointed. The interior felt cheap
compared to my last gen. S class. They really cheapened it. There was too
much plastic, less wood, cheap looking cupholders, cheap feeling storage
bins below the front seats that stick out and hit your legs, etc. The car
drove nice, but there no excitement. It starts at $73k, doesn't have Hid's,
doesn't have a CD changer, and honestly was bare boned. Everything is
optional, of course. If you do get the optional CD changer, it goes in the
TRUNK! Overall, the quality definitely is lacking on the new one.

When they came out with the new body style in 2000, (we've owned S classes
for MANY years) it just could not compare to the previous S classes. We have watched the quality and reliability fade over the years. So, unless you've owned them, it's hard for anyone to understand where I'm coming from. The new S was truly a dissapointment. The S class is NOT what it used to be and does not DRIVE like it the previous generation. The solid tank feel is gone. As I said, I almost bought another new S... At the LAST minute, a friend told me about this new Q45. The closest infiniti dealer is 70 miles away, and I went down there and was totally SHOCKED. It really blew me away. The deal was bacially written up at the Mercedes dealer and I pulled out. After seeing/driving the S, and then seeing/driving the Q, it made the decision clear.

yes feel of the leather and interior plastics of the CLK, SLK, S-class, 3 series, 5 series, 7 series which my family pervious owned are quite cheap compare to the SC430, LS430 that we own right now. :rolleyes:

and the stereo and Navigation of the Germany cars sucks compare to the Lexus cars.

I don't hate the Germany cars, I love all the Germany cars I pervious owned. And this is just my own experience.

almost forget to mention that the Lexus dealers have much better service than the BMW, Mercedes dealers I been to.

also not try to offend the Germany cars, just my own experience.

Common now and be real!! the leather in our 97 LS is falling apart and harden. It is not soft as it's used to and all faded and showing cracks for only 6 years??

Some have pointed out comsumer reports and links of the problems on cars, but those report don't mean much and misleading. Same as the war with Iraq. everytime you turn on tv or read the newspaper, what do you see? People opposing or against the war on the front page or headline news, from all over the country, LA, New York,,, demonstration everywhere... ect... People do not hear from those who are for war. They are silent!!.. The truth is more than 2/3 are pro-war and do you hear them making loud noises??? NO!

Anyway, I have had good experience with mine and i am a little bias toward Merc.. especially..

Anyway... it was just my opinion and taste.. and buy whatever you like.. it's your money :) .. but I would never spend $60-$70K on a Toyota...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NewR
[B]

Common now and be real!!

I have had ownership experience with BMW, MB, and Lexus. The Lexus' I have owned have been much better than the MBs and the BMW's. I can truthfully say that I liked my Honda Pilot better than my Mercedes C320 4matic wagon. I can also truthfully say that I like my s2k (a HONDA, mind you) much more than my CLK convertibles and 325ci's. I have also had mechanical problems with the few MBs and BMWs I have owned, while after 18 lexus's, I have yet to have a problem.

BTW... for all of those who say they would never pay $60-70k on a Toyota, do you go around alerting NSX owners that they paid $90k for a HONDA (gasp!)? By this reasoning, I shouldnt pay $90k for a Ford XKR, $85k for a Chrysler S430, or even $1million on that darn Volkswagen EB16/4 Veyron.

...I thought on a board dedicated to a $30k+ Honda, people would put less stock in the badge on the hood, than the merit of the car.

coming from a family that's owned every lexus except an lx, i'd say the ls is a no brainer, especially when build quality is compared with the european sedans. just my $.02.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saab9-3
[B]I have had ownership experience with BMW, MB, and Lexus.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeD
[B]I am very open minded and I speak from experience when I say Mercedes or BMW makes better cars than Lexus.

How about Cadillac and Lincoln...:D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeD
[B]I am very open minded and I speak from experience when I say Mercedes or BMW makes better cars than Lexus.

To be honest I don't see what the point of this whole debate is.

Is it which one is a better value? - then it's no brainer. The lexus wins hands down. It has more or less the same level of equipment for less money.

However, once we keep in mind that these cars are purchased by people who are truly well off (yeah, most of you here), it makes more sense. These luxury cars purchases are made due to the image and seldom on objective considerations. Personally, LS seems a little lost on what it wants to be good at. Sporty? No. Refined? Driven a s class lately? or even a lowly ES? Styling? hmmm looks to me like a bloated whale suffering from the worst hangover.

The majority of s2000 owners have bought their cars because they could not careless about the badge. As an 'affordable' fun car, it may be a mistake from which they can swiftly recover, but whether people are willing to risk a dent to their image (in whatever elitist society JoeD appears to be a member of) in buying a $70-80k car is another matter.

Here are my suggestions to rai:
If you think an MB is just a badge, buy a Lexus.
If you cannot afford an MB and want to buy a Lexus because it's 'good value', buy a Lexus (but if this was the case, I doubt you should really be buying it in the first place).


Just to be clear, LS 430 IS a rebadged Toyota Celsior.:)

:thumbup: I couldn't agree more

Wonder if rai will buy an LS or the Sti....


:)

Having grown up in Oxford - England, I have seen, met, drank with, and befriended the biggest snobs, richest gits, and blue-blooded die hards. They didn't drive MB's though, they drove / were driven in, Rolls Royce's, Bentley

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NewR
[B]

Standard for luxury???? what are you smoking???

I bet those who swear and die for their lexus has never owned or even driven the Bimmer or Merc.

The LS430 is an ugly car. Both aesthetically and dynamically.

Before my dad purchased his Q45, we test drove all the competitors (LS430, S430/500, A8/S8, 540i/M5). Why my dad felt the Q45 was a greater car than the S8 or M5, I don't know. But a true car guy (i.e. one that drives his car for the pure joy of the driving experience - or an S2000 owner) would feel wholly disappointed in the LS430.

Again, it's visually bland. It does nothing for me. When you first see the car, you're not tempted to walk around it and take in what exactly you're about to get in and drive. With the Infiniti, however, you spend a good 5 minutes before stepping in. The gatling headlights, 18-inch multi-spoke rims, etc. are just plain cool.

And then you get behind the wheel and you realize it's a totally different driving experience. The Lexus drives you; you drive the Infiniti. First of all, the Lexus' power steering is way overboosted; it gets rather unnerving at speed. And the steering itself is numb. It provides little feedback when you take those inevitable quick left-right switchbacks at S2000 speeds. Try it in the Q45 and you're pleasantly surprised.

While it's no S2000 or NSX when considering driver feedback, the Q45 is definitely a few notches above the Lexus. The steering has a nice weighty feel, the throttle is more responsive, but not in the annoying sort of way.

And then there's the interior. The Lexus is wonderful, no doubt, but for some reason, I just feel more at home. The controls fall at hand. (As it should, as the Q45 was our 15th or so Nissan/Infiniti.) I do believe the stereo system in the Lexus is superior to the Infiniti, but only just. The wood trim is more conservative in the Infiniti - too much (as in the Lexus) and it just gets tacky. Did I mention the Q's reclining rear seats?

Oh ya, and you gotta love the Q's exhaust note!






BTW, we're still waiting for the local dealerships to receive their allottment of the new all-aluminum Jag XJ. They should be fun. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saab9-3
[B]I have had ownership experience with BMW, MB, and Lexus.

I don't know myself. I was going to get the STi because it's so cheap, but now I'm thinking maybe it's too cheap. Maybe I'll save my pennies and get a M5 (V10).

You hit the nail on the head there. We have very similiar tastes. I will say the Q has the best "sounding" engine at WOT. The S430 and 745i, etc. sound like dead horses in compairison.

Here are some homemade videos I made:

Q45 exhaust rev 118kb

Night drive 344kb

Night drive II 238kb

Adjusting motorized hid's via control knob inside cabin - after dark 165kb

Close-up of motorized hids 232kb

Rear camera 335kb

More on the site: http://get.to/q45

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen. Ignorance put into writing.

So your family are snobs that think nothing of throwing $20K to the wind and that's adequate justification to write off an entirely good line of cars? Dumb.

And your point is?

Are we somehow supposed to believe that Toyota doesn't build good cars?

Nobody (well at least me) will argue with you when you say that Lexus (the brand anyway) is a marketing gimmick. But its a successful marketing gimmick that has differentiated the two lines of cars and set the standard for customer service.

Most truly wealthy people that I know (and I actually do know quite a few even though I'm far from what I would consider wealthy) still care about $10K. The "wealthy" that don't are usually new money and more concerened with keeping up with the Jones' than anything else.

Let's face it folks MB, Lexus, BMW, Audi all produce great cars. They may share similar price points and aim to fill a similar niche but there actually exists some reasonable level of product differentiation.

The S class, for example is a fine automobile. Other than the stupid ass "COMMAND" system, I'm hard pressed to say anything other than positive things about the car. Its smooth, refined, powerful, and luxurious. Its even somewhat fun to drive (some verions more so than others). The same can be said for the Lexus LS. Is the Lexus more isolating? Yes. But don't be so foolish as to think that there are a large number of drivers who grew up with Buick and Cadillac as their image of luxury and they would gladly trade some steering feel for decreased wind noise.

I guess I keep getting back into this with you guys because there's a vocal minority here that seems to have an unwarranted, knee jerk mentality to certain brands because of nothing more than snob appeal and we should expect more from ourselves as enthusiasts.

Realize that different people have different tastes. Be intelligent enough to have an open mind.

Finally, and FWIW, I personally wouldn't own any of the cars mentioned above. A large, automatic luxury sedan doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.

Saw this on Jayson's Q site...

http://www.burtmanindustries.com/q45/priceless.jpg

:D

This is so sad!

I think rai (original poster) should be tied to a pole and executed for starting this thread.. j/k

Rai should clarify the word "better" and what does it actually mean.

In the mean time, enjoy your weekend folks, and drive safe!.. heheh.. this is getting silly!!

I think this thread was started by me not to say the LS was better than the S class or the 745i. I think that my point came about when I was pricing LS against the BMW and MB. Both of the German cars were in the low $70's or more and therefore left out of my $60-70K question.


So I guess I was asking about "other" cars (not MB and BMW).


Later this thread got bogged down because the LS was being compared with a tin can and therefore overpriced garbage.

You can get a loaded Q45 for $59k with all options.

This thread is cracking me up. We're talking about CARS here... My daily driver is an '03 E320. Fine automobile. More buggy than a car costing this much $$$ should be. And Mercedes really sucks when it comes to pricing. HID's are $1100... metallic paint was around $700... $1400 for leather seats? If you don't pony up the extra $$$ - the only leather in the car are the pieces that are directly under your a$$ and the one that your back comes in contact with... the Harmon-Kardon stereo has ghosts in it...

My play car is the S2k. My wife has an ES300. Honestly - I think the Lexus is screwed together better than the Benz. It has gone 146,000 miles and has been basically trouble free. More people stare at the Benz, if that's important.

The guys who bought the Nav option on the new E class are talking about sueing M-B because they STILL haven't gotten a retrofit - and it doesn't look like they will. I believe that M-B is going to trade the non-nav cars for new cars with the nav.

The ownership experience so far with both Lexus and M-B has been great - but I question the value of the M-B. After driving the car for a while now - I don't think the premium over the Lexus is justifiable.

my .02

A mercedes is similar to a rolex in watches as a lexus to a casio. Yes, Casio does have more functions, and offers more, and some looks better, but that doesnt mean anything. Everyone knows a rolex is better than a casio watch.

Second thing, driving a mercedes is more than just driving a car, its a social status. When your drive one, people view you entirely differently than lets say.. a Lexus?

I've had them all. But, someone who's been saving their money up for a long time that has never had a Mercedes and wants one -won't go for anything else. Most people I know go for the Benz for this reason. "Why pay 70k for a Toyota when you can get a S class for the same". I didn't say it, they do. I also am not saying the Mercedes is better but it's a "Mercedes" and that's how it's viewed. It's not the same unless it has that STAR.

Personally, I just can't deal with having my car at the dealer all the time. When you own a Mercedes the dealer always blames the owner for the problems and not the car. This is my dealer anyways. I moved to the Infiniti and couldn't be happier. It's also nice to have a car very few people have and it moves like a bat out of hell!

Not true at all. We are seeing MB's costing less than hyundai's so the status is not there any more.

If you think of the MB as a rolex and the Lexus as a Casio. You say some casio's look better. What if the Casio keeps better time? (that's what watches are for) and what if the Casio was worth more money (resale value) than the rolex after 5 years? I'd say the casio is the way to go unless you are going for snob appeal.

:hello:

1) Thank you for proving my point about shallow, egocentric people who are only concerned with conspicuous consumption. As I've said a hundred times, I've got nothing against MB products or MB drivers but I would hate to be grouped with any group of choadling ass monkeys that thinks social status is that important, especially when it comes to car ownership.

2) Ask most reputable jewelers and watch collectors and they'll most likely agree that your average cheapo Casio watch keeps time as good as or better than some very expensive Rolex watches. No doubt that Rolex's are beautifully crafted, yada yada but a watch is for keeping time. A Rolex is only "better" than a Casio if social status is that important to you.

$hit, I am still stuck here at the desk!!

Lets say you are walking down the beach and found 2 beautiful watches that someone left behind. A Rolex and a Casio. Problem is you can only choose one. Which one would you pick? Yeah, tell me you pick the Casio because it is as nice and keeps better time!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

:rolleyes: :banghead: :banghead: Ouch!!!

Ok,, i am out ta here..