AP2 S2000 vs 2016 ND Miata: in depth comparison and test drives!
01-04-2016, 08:48 AM
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Thread Starter
AP2 S2000 vs 2016 ND Miata: in depth comparison and test drives!
Be forewarned: this post is very detailed and long-winded to say the least! Cliff notes at the bottom.
So, I've been saving up for my next sporty/weekend/occasional track/autoX car for a while now. Pretty much ever since I sold my last weekend toy- my former 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata. I've driven a very long list of sports cars (mostly roadsters), most of them I had the pleasure of experiencing on my favorite local canyon road! After quite a few test drives, I had my mind pretty much set on getting an AP2 Honda S2000.
The last AP2 I drove through the canyon was just a riot to drive! It felt more confidence inspiring than the AP1 and I preferred the seemingly heavier steering feel over the last couple of AP1's I drove (I'm sure some people won't like that comment!). The only caveat is that prices for the AP2 S2000 seem to be going up and low mileage examples are starting to go for similar amounts of money as a new 2016+ ND Miata.
After doing quite a bit of research, I've had my eye set on the later model 2006+ S2000. Mostly because of the reflashable ECU; which is something that might be appealing down the line. I decided to just spend the extra cash and get a nice, clean, 1 or 2 owner, low mileage (sub-50k miles) 2006+ car. The only problem is prices on them keep going up and the nice, non-molested 2006+ cars are really commanding a premium. Here lately I regularly see the clean, un-modified 2006+ S2000's with low miles going for $20k-$25k.
Enter the 2016 ND Miata.
The new Miata (MX-5) starts at around $25k. However, for my purposes, I wouldn't want the base/Sport model, as the next model up- the Club- comes with a LSD, Bilstein shocks, bigger & wider 17x7” wheels and a shock tower brace. The Club also has a few other extra amenities over the Sport, but honestly those aren't big selling points for me- just the handling components. Granted, the Bilstein's would likely get swapped out for a set of coilovers down the line, but the other suspension components (mostly the LSD) would surely be welcomed. There's also the optional Brembo & BBS wheel package, but I don't think I could justify an additional $3400 for them. The Club starts around $29.5k. For arguments sake, by the time I'm looking to buy here in a few months, lets say I can talk a dealer down into the $27.5k range (cash).
At this point, we're talking $20-$25k for a 2006-2009 Honda S2000 or likely around $27.5k for a brand new 2016 Miata.
In terms of cash, I sold my old Mazdaspeed Miata a while back. I threw the money I made selling my MSM into my “next playtoy/weekend car fund” and I've been saving pretty aggressively for quite a while now and plan on purchasing the car cash, without touching my emergency funds, ect. To make sure I have plenty of liquid overhead, I'm also planning on selling my house in just a few months. If the market stays as is, I have about ~$300k in equity in my house, so worst case scenario, if I'm a grand or two short (on what I've saved towards the car), its not a big deal as I should be able to easily cover the difference.
As far as my plans for the next car, it will primarily be a weekend playtoy that I occasionally drive to work when the weather is nice. I plan on using it as a mountain/canyon road carver and occasional HPDE track day and autoX car. It will likely be modified to some extent, but will never be a full blown track machine; as I want to have it remain a street car that the little lady will still enjoy riding it!
Numbers don't describe emotions and no spec sheet can tell me how a car makes me feel. With that said, we are talking about performance cars and its probably valid to actually include performance metrics into the conversation. As such, here's the most relevant specs between the two of them (as per Car and Driver):
AP2 S2000 (2004 tested)-
-0-60mph= 5.5
-0-100mph= 14.0
-0-120mph= 22.3
-1/4 mile= 14.0@100mph
-Top speed= 150mph
-Rolling 5-60mph= 6.9
-Top gear 30-50mph= 9.7
-Top gear 50-70mph= 8.5
-Horsepower= 240hp @ 7800rpm (later rated at 237hp)
-Torque= 162 ft-lbs @ 6500rpm
-Curb weight= 2866 lbs
-Weight distribution= 49/51% F/R (slightly rearward weight bias)
-Skidpad= 0.88g
-Braking 70-0mph= 163 ft
ND 2016+ Miata-
-0-60mph= 5.9
-0-100mph= 16.2
-0-120mph= 28.9
-1/4 mile= 14.6@95mph
-Top speed= 129mph
-Rolling 5-60mph= 6.6
-Top gear 30-50mph= 8.4
-Top gear 50-70mph= 8.5
-Horsepower= 155hp @ 6000rpm
-Torque= 148 ft-lbs @ 4800rpm
-Curb weight= 2309 lbs
-Weight distribution= 52.4/47.6% F/R (slightly front weight bias)
-Skidpad= 0.90g
-Braking 70-0mph= 158 ft
Key points:
-The S2000 has considerably more top-end power.
-The S2000 has considerably more overall power (237hp vs 155hp)
-The S2000 has a better power to weight ratio that makes it the faster car overall.
-The Miata has a slightly quicker real world 5-60mph time, likely due to gearing and a more mid-range friendly motor.
-S2000 has slightly rear weight bias vs Miata's slight front weight bias.
-The Miata is a whopping 500+ lbs lighter.
-While the Miata has an advantage on the skidpad, I would laregly ignore skidpad & braking numbers based on how far tire technology has improved in the past 10+ years. They should be relatively equal in the handling department, with the edge likely going to the Miata just due to the huge weight advantage.
-Braking numbers are comparable with the edge to the ND, but again, tire technology has improved over the last 10+ years. I would expect the ND (especially with Brembos) to resist fade to a higher degree by virtue of lightness.
At first I thought the S2000 would be the faster car around a racetrack, but then someone on the Miata boards pointed out some interesting lap times that Motor Trend pulled at Laguna Seca with an ND Miata in their recent Best Driver's Car event and compared it to the best lap time MT pulled at Laguna Seca in a 2006 S2000 a few years back:
-2016 Miata Club= 1:50.68
-2006 S2000= 1:50.74
Granted, they were done several years apart with different drivers (Randy Pobst vs Max Angelelli), but I think it illustrates that they seem to actually be pretty comparable. Yes, I readily concede that I'm just bench racing here, but I think its relevant info.
Here are both articles:
-ND- http://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-...t-drivers-car/
-2006 S2000- http://www.motortrend.com/news/2006-...00-laguna-lap/
I guess I just assumed the S2000 would be faster due to Car and Driver's annual Lightning Lap results:
-2008 S2000 CR= 3:15.0
-2016 Miata= 3:20.8
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-more-feature
Granted, that is not a "regular" S2000, its the CR, which has extra go-fast goodies on it (aero, stiffer suspension & slightly wider tires).
I was curious about how much faster a CR was around a track vs a standard AP2. According to Car and Driver, a 2008 CR lapped Mid-Ohio about 3 seconds faster than a standard S2000: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review
That's a pretty significant gap in my opinion.
After looking at the numbers, I'm not so convinced that a standard (non-CR) S2000 doesn't have comparable track performance to the ND. Again, this is all just bench racing and speculating, but it doesn't seem they're as far off on a race track as I originally thought they were.
Looking at the SCCA's new rule book "draft", it looks like they still believe the S2000 is the faster car based on classing in Street:
-S2000 CR= AS
-S2000 (non-CR)= BS
-ND Miata= CS
http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1451250334
For the record, I'm not exactly a small guy. I'm around 6'2”, 210 lbs or so. As such, interior space is something to consider. I've owned a 1990 NA & 2004 MSM in the past and I fit in both of them, but it was tight. Due to my size, looking at interior specs is probably a good idea. Here's the interior specs:
S2000-
Front leg-room- 44.3”
Front head-room- 34.6”
Front hip-room- 49.8”
Front shoulder room- 50.7”
ND Miata-
Front leg-room- 43.1”
Front head-room- 37.4”
Front hip-room- 52.0”
Front shoulder room- 52.2”
I take those measurements with a grain of salt as they're not necessarily indicative of how a particular body type will fit in a car. For instance, most of my height is in my legs and I don't know how Honda measured the S2000's head-room, but it always seemed underrated to me. The S2000 supposedly has less headroom than my old 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata (34.6” vs 37.1”), but I didn't find that to be accurate at all. I drove both (MSM & S2000) back to back and with the top up I had more head-room in the S2000. With that said, it appeared that the smaller Miata has a slightly larger interior in almost every way except for leg-room.
As of a couple of days ago, I finally got a chance to take both of these cars for back to back test drives!
Temperatures were in the low 40's with no clouds in the sky (good weather for early January in Denver!), so it was a good day to put them through their paces. I drove a 2016 ND Miata Club w/Brembo & BBS package back to back with a 2005 AP2 Honda S2000.
Disclaimers:
-I'm in the Denver metro area; read- high elevation (5200 ft). The roads I took these cars on are tight canyon/mountain roads, with lots of elevation change; climbing to up over 7000+ ft in elevation!
-I drove these cars on different roads, but both of them easily helped me to identify what I wanted to know about them! I drove the ND up (and down) Lookout Mountain and I drove the S2000 down Deer Creek Canyon Rd. Both are filled with constantly changing corners, but I would say that the downhill portion of Lookout Mountain had more hairpins, while Deer Creek Canyon probably has more S-curves.
-The Miata was brand new. As such, it was not fully broken in and its ECU might not have fully adapted to our elevation. It will likely pickup a bit more power as time goes by.
-The S2000 had 95k miles on the clock. It appeared to be stock except for a set of aftermarket 17” wheels with stock sized all-season rubber (Falken Pro G4 A/S). I couldn't find any other traces of modification on it and it seemed to be pretty well maintained, as the car was in great shape despite its age and mileage.
-The roads were clear and the sun was out, but there was still snow on the shoulders of roads and on the last part of my test drive in the ND on the shadowed side of the mountain there were some places that still had small slivers of ice in the center of the lanes. There were also a few places on both roads that were damp from the melted snow. Note: the ND wore OEM summer rubber. As such, neither car was pushed past about 8/10ths.
-In both cars I was accompanied by salesmen. I got pretty lucky, as they were both pretty cool guys that encouraged me to enjoy the cars and didn't mind taking them for long drives in the mountains to test them! I usually just talk the salesmen into giving me a borrowed car agreement & a demo plate, but in these cases, it actually wasn't needed! Two guys at two different dealerships actually offered to have me take them down twisty mountain/canyon roads! When we were done, both of them offered to give me BCA's & demo plates so that I could take the car(s) home to show the little lady.... I only took one of them up on their offer! More on that later.
-It should be noted that both salesmen were full grown men and I'm not exactly small myself (6'2” ~210 lbs). The extra weight in the car, plus the addition of high altitude surely didn't help either car, but due to its dependence on light weight, it probably hurt the Miata to a greater degree.
Where to start? I'll break this down by category and try to give as much detail as I can recall:
**Exterior** I love the S2000 and think it is a very timeless design that will still look good in 20 years... however the ND Miata is a damn good looking car! Pictures don't do the Brembo/BBS package justice! The Honda is certainly timeless and unoffensive, but the Miata looks like something far more exotic in real life!
**Interior space** I thought that the numbers might be incorrect and the S2000 might actually be the larger car inside... I was right. Those interior measurements are a crock! The S2000 was more comfortable for my big frame in every way I could think of. The S2000's bolsters were absolutely perfect and didn't wear me down a bit, not even after well over an hour of test driving. The ND's seats weren't bad, but the bolsters seemed a bit more intrusive to me; maybe they'll be better after they break in a bit? The foot-wells in the ND were more narrow and intrusive; the ND's transmission tunnel/center console put more pressure on my right knee and there was something in the driver's door that kept jabbing me in the left leg.
If you put the top down, the frame of the ND's windshield seemed like it might sit just a tad bit higher than the S2000's (maybe 1/2”).... but with the top up the S2000 had a LOT more headroom. In the ND my hair was touching the soft-top; whereas in the S2000 there was about 1.5 inches between my head and the soft top. Needless to say I was MUCH more comfortable in the S2000. In the ND I felt cramped; I could deal with it, but it wasn't ideal. In the S2000 I fit like a glove; it was tight, but I had no complaints as I just felt like I was held in place really well.
It should be noted that while driving the ND I had the seat slid all the way back, but I felt very upright and uncomfortable. After my test drive, I found several tall guys on the Miata boards saying they were a lot more comfortable after sliding the seat 1 or 2 clicks forward (from rearmost position) as it allowed them to recline the seat a good bit more. I might have to try that in the future.
**Interior general** They both have nice cabins for what they are! In the ND I didn't even turn on the stereo or play with any of the features, as I was more concerned with driving. Some people refer to the ND's interior as “simple and driver focused”... I think the S2000 takes that concept to an entirely different level, as all cockpit controls are directly in front of the driver. I didn't spend much time playing with either of the electronics, so I can't comment on how each of them work.
I drove both cars with tops down, windows up and heaters on full blast! In the cool Colorado air the ND seemed to do a better job of keeping the cabin nice and warm. This is where I got the impression that the Miata's windshield was slightly higher than the S2000's.
Now onto actual driving....
**Engine/power/acceleration** On paper they should be pretty close, as per previously posted numbers... in today's test drives, the S2000 felt considerably faster. Below 6000rpm they actually felt pretty similar... above 6000rpm the ND's power dropped off drastically, whereas the S2000 kicked into VTEC and rocketed to its 8000rpm redline! They both had great throttle response and were easy to rev-match.
Before I drove them, I thought the ND would have had a low-end torque advantage... if it does, I didn't really notice it. The ND is lighter and has a better torque/weight ratio, while having only 148 ft-lbs... but the bigger engine (2.2L vs 2.0L) in the AP2 S2000 and slight torque bump (162 ft-lbs) seemed to make up for it. I don't know if the same could have been said for the older AP1 S2000.
In terms of engine character, the S2000's engine is a gem! It sounds great, loves to rev and is fun to keep on-boil! The Miata's engine is pretty lifeless by comparison. Its not a bad mill and I'm sure there's plenty of power to be found in it, but its not nearly as entertaining or engaging.
**Handling** The Miata is very light weight and feels light... the steering is light and the car transitions easily. It feels a bit more “loose” and the rear end wants to rotate. Overall, it feels light and tossable....
However, the S2000 felt more confidence inspiring to me. It felt a bit heavier, but also more planted. I felt more comfortable pushing it. The suspension had considerably less body roll and transitions seemed to happen with more control. I don't know which one is faster through the corners, but I know which one put a bigger smile on my face- S2000!!
Steering on both of them is electric, so they're both a bit light on feel. They felt pretty similar, but the S2000's might have been a tad bit heavier, which is a good thing in my book.
**Drivetrain** The Miata is extremely easy to drive! The clutch is light, it had an intuitive catch point and I loved how easy it was the engage smoothly! I jumped right into the ND Miata and instantly felt like I had been driving the car for years. The shifter had nice short throws and was fun to work! I liked the short gear ratios, as they kept the car feeling lively and fun.
The S2000's clutch caught a bit high and engaged a bit more abruptly. It wasn't bad, but the Miata's was better. However, I still think the S2000 has the best shifter on the planet! Its seriously fun to row! The S2000 also has very short gearing, which makes it easy to keep the engine on boil, especially outside of first gear.
**Brakes** Both pedals were easy to modulate and offered good feedback... but neither car was pushed hard enough to induce fade, so its hard to draw any further conclusions.
**Overall/Cliff Notes** Both cars are a lot of fun, but I enjoyed the S2000 to a much greater degree! I smiled several times while driving the ND, but while driving the S2000 I couldn't wipe the huge grin off of my face! The major factors going for the S2000: the amazing engine, the extra handling confidence, the perfect shifter and of course the fact that I comfortably fit inside of it!
The Miata had several disadvantages: the biggest being that I couldn't get comfortable inside of it; which might be mitigated if I spent more time adjusting the seat. Smaller drivers likely won't have this issue. The engine was also at a disadvantage as it wasn't fully broken in, it might not have adapted to my elevation and the extra weight (2 full grown men) in each car surely hurt the Miata to a greater degree. However, even with all of those things notwithstanding, it just didn't have the character of the S2000's F22 motor.
At the end of each test drive, both salesmen offered to give me a demo plate and take the car to the little lady.... I drove the ND first, but declined the solo drive afterward as I wanted to get to the S2000's dealership before the sun went down. I did however take them up on taking the S2000 out solo! At that point, I learned what I needed to know, but I was having so much fun I decided to take it for another fun run! If I would have had more time in the day when it was nice I likely would have taken both out for solo runs, but I'm pretty confident that my verdict would have remained the same.
What really shocked me was just how solid the S2000 felt with 95k miles on the chassis. No creaks or rattles; everything felt tight. The interior and exterior held up really well and if I didn't know better, I wouldn't have believed the car was 10+ years old with nearly 100k on the clock. I plan on buying a much lower mileage car, so it gives me a lot of confidence about the car's longevity.
I've driven the AP2 S2000 before (last one was a 2006) and was very impressed.... a couple days ago I walked out the door thinking I would prefer the ND Miata and that maybe the AP2 S2000 wasn't as good as I remembered it being. Sometimes I'm happy to be wrong!
**Final disclaimer: I know that the ND Miata has a lot of potential. With the ND's softer suspension and conservatively tuned engine (people are getting 25-30hp from these cars with just headers & a tune), I'm sure that simple power and suspension bolt-ons will make a much bigger difference on the ND than they would on the S2000. However, in this stock vs stock comparison, I prefer the S2000.
Cliff notes: Both of them are very fun to drive, but I preferred the AP2 S2000!
Cheers!
-Brandon
So, I've been saving up for my next sporty/weekend/occasional track/autoX car for a while now. Pretty much ever since I sold my last weekend toy- my former 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata. I've driven a very long list of sports cars (mostly roadsters), most of them I had the pleasure of experiencing on my favorite local canyon road! After quite a few test drives, I had my mind pretty much set on getting an AP2 Honda S2000.
The last AP2 I drove through the canyon was just a riot to drive! It felt more confidence inspiring than the AP1 and I preferred the seemingly heavier steering feel over the last couple of AP1's I drove (I'm sure some people won't like that comment!). The only caveat is that prices for the AP2 S2000 seem to be going up and low mileage examples are starting to go for similar amounts of money as a new 2016+ ND Miata.
After doing quite a bit of research, I've had my eye set on the later model 2006+ S2000. Mostly because of the reflashable ECU; which is something that might be appealing down the line. I decided to just spend the extra cash and get a nice, clean, 1 or 2 owner, low mileage (sub-50k miles) 2006+ car. The only problem is prices on them keep going up and the nice, non-molested 2006+ cars are really commanding a premium. Here lately I regularly see the clean, un-modified 2006+ S2000's with low miles going for $20k-$25k.
Enter the 2016 ND Miata.
The new Miata (MX-5) starts at around $25k. However, for my purposes, I wouldn't want the base/Sport model, as the next model up- the Club- comes with a LSD, Bilstein shocks, bigger & wider 17x7” wheels and a shock tower brace. The Club also has a few other extra amenities over the Sport, but honestly those aren't big selling points for me- just the handling components. Granted, the Bilstein's would likely get swapped out for a set of coilovers down the line, but the other suspension components (mostly the LSD) would surely be welcomed. There's also the optional Brembo & BBS wheel package, but I don't think I could justify an additional $3400 for them. The Club starts around $29.5k. For arguments sake, by the time I'm looking to buy here in a few months, lets say I can talk a dealer down into the $27.5k range (cash).
At this point, we're talking $20-$25k for a 2006-2009 Honda S2000 or likely around $27.5k for a brand new 2016 Miata.
In terms of cash, I sold my old Mazdaspeed Miata a while back. I threw the money I made selling my MSM into my “next playtoy/weekend car fund” and I've been saving pretty aggressively for quite a while now and plan on purchasing the car cash, without touching my emergency funds, ect. To make sure I have plenty of liquid overhead, I'm also planning on selling my house in just a few months. If the market stays as is, I have about ~$300k in equity in my house, so worst case scenario, if I'm a grand or two short (on what I've saved towards the car), its not a big deal as I should be able to easily cover the difference.
As far as my plans for the next car, it will primarily be a weekend playtoy that I occasionally drive to work when the weather is nice. I plan on using it as a mountain/canyon road carver and occasional HPDE track day and autoX car. It will likely be modified to some extent, but will never be a full blown track machine; as I want to have it remain a street car that the little lady will still enjoy riding it!
Numbers don't describe emotions and no spec sheet can tell me how a car makes me feel. With that said, we are talking about performance cars and its probably valid to actually include performance metrics into the conversation. As such, here's the most relevant specs between the two of them (as per Car and Driver):
AP2 S2000 (2004 tested)-
-0-60mph= 5.5
-0-100mph= 14.0
-0-120mph= 22.3
-1/4 mile= 14.0@100mph
-Top speed= 150mph
-Rolling 5-60mph= 6.9
-Top gear 30-50mph= 9.7
-Top gear 50-70mph= 8.5
-Horsepower= 240hp @ 7800rpm (later rated at 237hp)
-Torque= 162 ft-lbs @ 6500rpm
-Curb weight= 2866 lbs
-Weight distribution= 49/51% F/R (slightly rearward weight bias)
-Skidpad= 0.88g
-Braking 70-0mph= 163 ft
ND 2016+ Miata-
-0-60mph= 5.9
-0-100mph= 16.2
-0-120mph= 28.9
-1/4 mile= 14.6@95mph
-Top speed= 129mph
-Rolling 5-60mph= 6.6
-Top gear 30-50mph= 8.4
-Top gear 50-70mph= 8.5
-Horsepower= 155hp @ 6000rpm
-Torque= 148 ft-lbs @ 4800rpm
-Curb weight= 2309 lbs
-Weight distribution= 52.4/47.6% F/R (slightly front weight bias)
-Skidpad= 0.90g
-Braking 70-0mph= 158 ft
Key points:
-The S2000 has considerably more top-end power.
-The S2000 has considerably more overall power (237hp vs 155hp)
-The S2000 has a better power to weight ratio that makes it the faster car overall.
-The Miata has a slightly quicker real world 5-60mph time, likely due to gearing and a more mid-range friendly motor.
-S2000 has slightly rear weight bias vs Miata's slight front weight bias.
-The Miata is a whopping 500+ lbs lighter.
-While the Miata has an advantage on the skidpad, I would laregly ignore skidpad & braking numbers based on how far tire technology has improved in the past 10+ years. They should be relatively equal in the handling department, with the edge likely going to the Miata just due to the huge weight advantage.
-Braking numbers are comparable with the edge to the ND, but again, tire technology has improved over the last 10+ years. I would expect the ND (especially with Brembos) to resist fade to a higher degree by virtue of lightness.
At first I thought the S2000 would be the faster car around a racetrack, but then someone on the Miata boards pointed out some interesting lap times that Motor Trend pulled at Laguna Seca with an ND Miata in their recent Best Driver's Car event and compared it to the best lap time MT pulled at Laguna Seca in a 2006 S2000 a few years back:
-2016 Miata Club= 1:50.68
-2006 S2000= 1:50.74
Granted, they were done several years apart with different drivers (Randy Pobst vs Max Angelelli), but I think it illustrates that they seem to actually be pretty comparable. Yes, I readily concede that I'm just bench racing here, but I think its relevant info.
Here are both articles:
-ND- http://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-...t-drivers-car/
-2006 S2000- http://www.motortrend.com/news/2006-...00-laguna-lap/
I guess I just assumed the S2000 would be faster due to Car and Driver's annual Lightning Lap results:
-2008 S2000 CR= 3:15.0
-2016 Miata= 3:20.8
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-more-feature
Granted, that is not a "regular" S2000, its the CR, which has extra go-fast goodies on it (aero, stiffer suspension & slightly wider tires).
I was curious about how much faster a CR was around a track vs a standard AP2. According to Car and Driver, a 2008 CR lapped Mid-Ohio about 3 seconds faster than a standard S2000: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review
That's a pretty significant gap in my opinion.
After looking at the numbers, I'm not so convinced that a standard (non-CR) S2000 doesn't have comparable track performance to the ND. Again, this is all just bench racing and speculating, but it doesn't seem they're as far off on a race track as I originally thought they were.
Looking at the SCCA's new rule book "draft", it looks like they still believe the S2000 is the faster car based on classing in Street:
-S2000 CR= AS
-S2000 (non-CR)= BS
-ND Miata= CS
http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1451250334
For the record, I'm not exactly a small guy. I'm around 6'2”, 210 lbs or so. As such, interior space is something to consider. I've owned a 1990 NA & 2004 MSM in the past and I fit in both of them, but it was tight. Due to my size, looking at interior specs is probably a good idea. Here's the interior specs:
S2000-
Front leg-room- 44.3”
Front head-room- 34.6”
Front hip-room- 49.8”
Front shoulder room- 50.7”
ND Miata-
Front leg-room- 43.1”
Front head-room- 37.4”
Front hip-room- 52.0”
Front shoulder room- 52.2”
I take those measurements with a grain of salt as they're not necessarily indicative of how a particular body type will fit in a car. For instance, most of my height is in my legs and I don't know how Honda measured the S2000's head-room, but it always seemed underrated to me. The S2000 supposedly has less headroom than my old 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata (34.6” vs 37.1”), but I didn't find that to be accurate at all. I drove both (MSM & S2000) back to back and with the top up I had more head-room in the S2000. With that said, it appeared that the smaller Miata has a slightly larger interior in almost every way except for leg-room.
As of a couple of days ago, I finally got a chance to take both of these cars for back to back test drives!
Temperatures were in the low 40's with no clouds in the sky (good weather for early January in Denver!), so it was a good day to put them through their paces. I drove a 2016 ND Miata Club w/Brembo & BBS package back to back with a 2005 AP2 Honda S2000.
Disclaimers:
-I'm in the Denver metro area; read- high elevation (5200 ft). The roads I took these cars on are tight canyon/mountain roads, with lots of elevation change; climbing to up over 7000+ ft in elevation!
-I drove these cars on different roads, but both of them easily helped me to identify what I wanted to know about them! I drove the ND up (and down) Lookout Mountain and I drove the S2000 down Deer Creek Canyon Rd. Both are filled with constantly changing corners, but I would say that the downhill portion of Lookout Mountain had more hairpins, while Deer Creek Canyon probably has more S-curves.
-The Miata was brand new. As such, it was not fully broken in and its ECU might not have fully adapted to our elevation. It will likely pickup a bit more power as time goes by.
-The S2000 had 95k miles on the clock. It appeared to be stock except for a set of aftermarket 17” wheels with stock sized all-season rubber (Falken Pro G4 A/S). I couldn't find any other traces of modification on it and it seemed to be pretty well maintained, as the car was in great shape despite its age and mileage.
-The roads were clear and the sun was out, but there was still snow on the shoulders of roads and on the last part of my test drive in the ND on the shadowed side of the mountain there were some places that still had small slivers of ice in the center of the lanes. There were also a few places on both roads that were damp from the melted snow. Note: the ND wore OEM summer rubber. As such, neither car was pushed past about 8/10ths.
-In both cars I was accompanied by salesmen. I got pretty lucky, as they were both pretty cool guys that encouraged me to enjoy the cars and didn't mind taking them for long drives in the mountains to test them! I usually just talk the salesmen into giving me a borrowed car agreement & a demo plate, but in these cases, it actually wasn't needed! Two guys at two different dealerships actually offered to have me take them down twisty mountain/canyon roads! When we were done, both of them offered to give me BCA's & demo plates so that I could take the car(s) home to show the little lady.... I only took one of them up on their offer! More on that later.
-It should be noted that both salesmen were full grown men and I'm not exactly small myself (6'2” ~210 lbs). The extra weight in the car, plus the addition of high altitude surely didn't help either car, but due to its dependence on light weight, it probably hurt the Miata to a greater degree.
Where to start? I'll break this down by category and try to give as much detail as I can recall:
**Exterior** I love the S2000 and think it is a very timeless design that will still look good in 20 years... however the ND Miata is a damn good looking car! Pictures don't do the Brembo/BBS package justice! The Honda is certainly timeless and unoffensive, but the Miata looks like something far more exotic in real life!
**Interior space** I thought that the numbers might be incorrect and the S2000 might actually be the larger car inside... I was right. Those interior measurements are a crock! The S2000 was more comfortable for my big frame in every way I could think of. The S2000's bolsters were absolutely perfect and didn't wear me down a bit, not even after well over an hour of test driving. The ND's seats weren't bad, but the bolsters seemed a bit more intrusive to me; maybe they'll be better after they break in a bit? The foot-wells in the ND were more narrow and intrusive; the ND's transmission tunnel/center console put more pressure on my right knee and there was something in the driver's door that kept jabbing me in the left leg.
If you put the top down, the frame of the ND's windshield seemed like it might sit just a tad bit higher than the S2000's (maybe 1/2”).... but with the top up the S2000 had a LOT more headroom. In the ND my hair was touching the soft-top; whereas in the S2000 there was about 1.5 inches between my head and the soft top. Needless to say I was MUCH more comfortable in the S2000. In the ND I felt cramped; I could deal with it, but it wasn't ideal. In the S2000 I fit like a glove; it was tight, but I had no complaints as I just felt like I was held in place really well.
It should be noted that while driving the ND I had the seat slid all the way back, but I felt very upright and uncomfortable. After my test drive, I found several tall guys on the Miata boards saying they were a lot more comfortable after sliding the seat 1 or 2 clicks forward (from rearmost position) as it allowed them to recline the seat a good bit more. I might have to try that in the future.
**Interior general** They both have nice cabins for what they are! In the ND I didn't even turn on the stereo or play with any of the features, as I was more concerned with driving. Some people refer to the ND's interior as “simple and driver focused”... I think the S2000 takes that concept to an entirely different level, as all cockpit controls are directly in front of the driver. I didn't spend much time playing with either of the electronics, so I can't comment on how each of them work.
I drove both cars with tops down, windows up and heaters on full blast! In the cool Colorado air the ND seemed to do a better job of keeping the cabin nice and warm. This is where I got the impression that the Miata's windshield was slightly higher than the S2000's.
Now onto actual driving....
**Engine/power/acceleration** On paper they should be pretty close, as per previously posted numbers... in today's test drives, the S2000 felt considerably faster. Below 6000rpm they actually felt pretty similar... above 6000rpm the ND's power dropped off drastically, whereas the S2000 kicked into VTEC and rocketed to its 8000rpm redline! They both had great throttle response and were easy to rev-match.
Before I drove them, I thought the ND would have had a low-end torque advantage... if it does, I didn't really notice it. The ND is lighter and has a better torque/weight ratio, while having only 148 ft-lbs... but the bigger engine (2.2L vs 2.0L) in the AP2 S2000 and slight torque bump (162 ft-lbs) seemed to make up for it. I don't know if the same could have been said for the older AP1 S2000.
In terms of engine character, the S2000's engine is a gem! It sounds great, loves to rev and is fun to keep on-boil! The Miata's engine is pretty lifeless by comparison. Its not a bad mill and I'm sure there's plenty of power to be found in it, but its not nearly as entertaining or engaging.
**Handling** The Miata is very light weight and feels light... the steering is light and the car transitions easily. It feels a bit more “loose” and the rear end wants to rotate. Overall, it feels light and tossable....
However, the S2000 felt more confidence inspiring to me. It felt a bit heavier, but also more planted. I felt more comfortable pushing it. The suspension had considerably less body roll and transitions seemed to happen with more control. I don't know which one is faster through the corners, but I know which one put a bigger smile on my face- S2000!!
Steering on both of them is electric, so they're both a bit light on feel. They felt pretty similar, but the S2000's might have been a tad bit heavier, which is a good thing in my book.
**Drivetrain** The Miata is extremely easy to drive! The clutch is light, it had an intuitive catch point and I loved how easy it was the engage smoothly! I jumped right into the ND Miata and instantly felt like I had been driving the car for years. The shifter had nice short throws and was fun to work! I liked the short gear ratios, as they kept the car feeling lively and fun.
The S2000's clutch caught a bit high and engaged a bit more abruptly. It wasn't bad, but the Miata's was better. However, I still think the S2000 has the best shifter on the planet! Its seriously fun to row! The S2000 also has very short gearing, which makes it easy to keep the engine on boil, especially outside of first gear.
**Brakes** Both pedals were easy to modulate and offered good feedback... but neither car was pushed hard enough to induce fade, so its hard to draw any further conclusions.
**Overall/Cliff Notes** Both cars are a lot of fun, but I enjoyed the S2000 to a much greater degree! I smiled several times while driving the ND, but while driving the S2000 I couldn't wipe the huge grin off of my face! The major factors going for the S2000: the amazing engine, the extra handling confidence, the perfect shifter and of course the fact that I comfortably fit inside of it!
The Miata had several disadvantages: the biggest being that I couldn't get comfortable inside of it; which might be mitigated if I spent more time adjusting the seat. Smaller drivers likely won't have this issue. The engine was also at a disadvantage as it wasn't fully broken in, it might not have adapted to my elevation and the extra weight (2 full grown men) in each car surely hurt the Miata to a greater degree. However, even with all of those things notwithstanding, it just didn't have the character of the S2000's F22 motor.
At the end of each test drive, both salesmen offered to give me a demo plate and take the car to the little lady.... I drove the ND first, but declined the solo drive afterward as I wanted to get to the S2000's dealership before the sun went down. I did however take them up on taking the S2000 out solo! At that point, I learned what I needed to know, but I was having so much fun I decided to take it for another fun run! If I would have had more time in the day when it was nice I likely would have taken both out for solo runs, but I'm pretty confident that my verdict would have remained the same.
What really shocked me was just how solid the S2000 felt with 95k miles on the chassis. No creaks or rattles; everything felt tight. The interior and exterior held up really well and if I didn't know better, I wouldn't have believed the car was 10+ years old with nearly 100k on the clock. I plan on buying a much lower mileage car, so it gives me a lot of confidence about the car's longevity.
I've driven the AP2 S2000 before (last one was a 2006) and was very impressed.... a couple days ago I walked out the door thinking I would prefer the ND Miata and that maybe the AP2 S2000 wasn't as good as I remembered it being. Sometimes I'm happy to be wrong!
**Final disclaimer: I know that the ND Miata has a lot of potential. With the ND's softer suspension and conservatively tuned engine (people are getting 25-30hp from these cars with just headers & a tune), I'm sure that simple power and suspension bolt-ons will make a much bigger difference on the ND than they would on the S2000. However, in this stock vs stock comparison, I prefer the S2000.
Cliff notes: Both of them are very fun to drive, but I preferred the AP2 S2000!
Cheers!
-Brandon
01-04-2016, 10:40 AM
#3
Great write-up. I too had a Miata prior to the S2000.
One more data point you might consider: pick your five favorite possible modifications... and price them for both cars.
One more data point you might consider: pick your five favorite possible modifications... and price them for both cars.
01-04-2016, 10:44 AM
#4
I used a BYS seat rail and it lowered the seat about 1.5".
Great review by the way but if I had $300k in equity in the house I was selling I would be buying a 911 or a Vette or a old NSX or a ...
Great review by the way but if I had $300k in equity in the house I was selling I would be buying a 911 or a Vette or a old NSX or a ...
01-04-2016, 11:36 AM
#6
Thread Starter
I drove several other faster cars for under $30k to include a C5 Z06 and a couple of Porsche's. While the Z06 was a lot faster, and plenty of fun in its own right (very different feeling) it wasn't nearly as much fun in the canyons! I'm sure it would be great on an open track, but not on the public roads. Plus I prefer roadsters over coupes for overall fun factor.
The only other car I drove that matched the S2000's fun factor in the canyons was the Boxster S; but I preferred the AP2 S2000 overall, and the cost of ownership differences were a huge factor in the Honda's favor.
Thanks for the tip about the BYS seat rail! I'll be sure to look into it!
01-04-2016, 12:07 PM
#7
Thread Starter
I can't hardly find an Elise at a dealership in my area just to take for a spin! Right now there's only 1 in my area, its privately owned, has 60k miles, a Rebuilt title and the guy still wants $25.5k. Most of the clean title Elise's I've seen around here seem to be asking $35k-$40k.
On a national level, it looks like they occasionally dip down into the high 20's/low 30's, but most of those cars seem to have been in an accident, or they're modded, or have rebuilt/salvage titles, or other issues that make me lose interest. I don't mind making a road trip to get a good deal on a car, but I would need to test drive one locally first to see if I would even be interested or not. On paper, I've always loved the Elise, but I've never actually been behind the wheel of one. Most of the clean non-modded ones with no major issues seem to be going for $35k+, which is a bit over my budget.
On a national level, it looks like they occasionally dip down into the high 20's/low 30's, but most of those cars seem to have been in an accident, or they're modded, or have rebuilt/salvage titles, or other issues that make me lose interest. I don't mind making a road trip to get a good deal on a car, but I would need to test drive one locally first to see if I would even be interested or not. On paper, I've always loved the Elise, but I've never actually been behind the wheel of one. Most of the clean non-modded ones with no major issues seem to be going for $35k+, which is a bit over my budget.
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01-05-2016, 08:00 AM
#9
Yeah, I can't find non-wrecked Elises in the 20s. I could a few years ago... Lame.
01-05-2016, 12:06 PM
#10
Registered User
I drove a new miata (automatic though; fail) at the San Diego auto show recently. Definitely gutless, but car still moved well since it's so light. Felt more torquey than the BRZ I drove though that was about a year ago. The entire thing transitions and changes directions lightning fast, which was extremely fun. I don't recall my AP1 being as eager, though it's been a few years since I've driven an AP1. I recently drove an AP2 and while it did feel more "stable" it also took out a bit of the fun IMHO. I'd probably test drive an AP1 again if I were to add a roadster to my garage, though I suspect the unique sound and power delivery of the F20 / F22 will win me over the Miata every time, despite the 4-500 lbs curb weight increase.
One thing I love is the manual top in the new Miata, it's so simple and fast and best of all weight saving due to no electric motor, plus less components to break when the car gets older.
One thing I love is the manual top in the new Miata, it's so simple and fast and best of all weight saving due to no electric motor, plus less components to break when the car gets older.