Honda lost its Mojo?
10-12-2010, 11:10 AM
#11
Registered User
Originally Posted by Triple-H,Oct 12 2010, 01:09 PM
Which means.... if they actually cared about the enthusiast market they would address the issue, but instead, their choice is to walk away from us. And to me that is about the same sentiment as the original article; Honda (HERE) has lost its mojo.
You can keep on feeling like Honda is out to get you, or is intentionally disregarding the enthusiast market, but the fact of the matter is that Honda is a business and their goal is to make money so they can continue to be a business. If it's not profitable for them to bring a car to the US shores (or if it offers no other side-benefits), then it doesn't really make sense to do it.
10-12-2010, 11:50 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Traveldude,Oct 12 2010, 12:18 PM
I am guessing it is a little of both- although his point is that if Honda is committed to its ethos of innovative, sporty fun there shouldn't be as many new releases that don't appeal to him.
I would have to dig back to find the company's initial projections, but if memory serves me correct, of the completely new models released (discounting the new iterations of Accord, Civic, CR-V, Odyssey brands) cars like the Ridgeline, Element, Insight and possibly even the CR-Z (too early to tell) have come in below sales expectations. In my mind, the only really new model line to be a slam dunk in the states seems to have been the Fit.
As for making money- it is very true, Honda isn't a charity. But raising the "making money" flag essentially takes Honda away from what it does best and puts Honda squarely in the ranks of auto companies focused solely on making a buck. The beauty of Honda was that it made money with innovative, fun and unique offerings. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I would have to dig back to find the company's initial projections, but if memory serves me correct, of the completely new models released (discounting the new iterations of Accord, Civic, CR-V, Odyssey brands) cars like the Ridgeline, Element, Insight and possibly even the CR-Z (too early to tell) have come in below sales expectations. In my mind, the only really new model line to be a slam dunk in the states seems to have been the Fit.
As for making money- it is very true, Honda isn't a charity. But raising the "making money" flag essentially takes Honda away from what it does best and puts Honda squarely in the ranks of auto companies focused solely on making a buck. The beauty of Honda was that it made money with innovative, fun and unique offerings. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
The Ridgeline and Insight are still relatively niche vehicles, as are the CR-Z and Element. While they had high hopes for the Insight, the rest of them were not expected to sell all that well.
You said "discounting the new iterations" of their best cars. How is that remotely fair or unbiased? It's like saying "Ignoring most of Megan Fox's body, let's focus on her ugly thumb to show how ugly she is."
While making a buck and making a fun vehicle are not mutually exclusive, if you've paid attention to the news lately, the buyers of those "fun" vehicles are going away quickly. New sales to people ages 18-25 are dropping considerably and so those "fun" cars are now less of a sales slam dunk and more of a limitation on the manufacturer improving what is really selling (ie, the "plain jane vanilla" vehicles).
10-12-2010, 11:52 AM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mxt_77,Oct 12 2010, 06:01 PM
Or they are stifled by strict government legislation which limits the products that they are willing to bring here.
10-12-2010, 12:04 PM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Roseville, CA
Posts: 6,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think all most people around here are asking for is just one exciting model from Honda. Something for the population that desires the quality, reliability and affordability of Honda but with some performance and fun factor as well.
Something more than a 122hp hybrid hatchback.
Something more than a 122hp hybrid hatchback.
10-12-2010, 12:12 PM
#15
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The UK Civic from the back actually looks like *puke*
_____________________
And to the idea that Honda only builds what sells: If they brought another sports car to the US (namely the Type R line) and made enough of them but still kept it limited production, how many people do you think would ditch their 350Z's, G35's, RX-8's, EVO's, and STi's? I agree with the article when it says Honda has [lost it]. The sportier Honda's (not including the post EP3 Si bullcrap) were some of the greatest affordable sports cars ever made by any car company. They were cheap, fast, AND reliable; and you are normally only allowed to pick 2. If Honda cares about making money the most, they should bring the Type R's back to the US (along with base models that have options for Type R body parts/wheels/cosmetic stuff) and should see their sales skyrocket.
_____________________
And to the idea that Honda only builds what sells: If they brought another sports car to the US (namely the Type R line) and made enough of them but still kept it limited production, how many people do you think would ditch their 350Z's, G35's, RX-8's, EVO's, and STi's? I agree with the article when it says Honda has [lost it]. The sportier Honda's (not including the post EP3 Si bullcrap) were some of the greatest affordable sports cars ever made by any car company. They were cheap, fast, AND reliable; and you are normally only allowed to pick 2. If Honda cares about making money the most, they should bring the Type R's back to the US (along with base models that have options for Type R body parts/wheels/cosmetic stuff) and should see their sales skyrocket.
10-12-2010, 12:33 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Triple-H,Oct 12 2010, 02:09 PM
We should be so lucky to get the UK Civic over the bland crap they intend to give us.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/11/honda-u...th-type-r-cues/
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/11/honda-u...th-type-r-cues/
I saw that car in England last November and it was HOT! Much smaller than the civic we get here.
10-12-2010, 12:38 PM
#17
Registered User
Originally Posted by alexh,Oct 12 2010, 02:52 PM
Why would you even consider that argument? 1. they make most hondas for US production in the US, 2. porsche, bmw, merc and audi all bring sportier products to the us, and 3. their boring-ass designs are across the product line...even an econobox can be a little interesting (new Ford Fiesta, e.g.).
Sporty is not Honda's bread & butter. Economical & reliable is.
10-12-2010, 12:39 PM
#18
Registered User
Originally Posted by TheDonEffect,Oct 12 2010, 10:14 AM
So Honda is making affordable, reliable, well built cars that lacks comparable performance to its competitors. Aside from the NSX and S2000, both of which werent really profit leaders, what changed?
The Accord is uninspiring? Uhm... duh?
The CRZ is whatever he said? Uhm... duh? I mean look at the CRX, great little car, but thats what it was, a commuter car with some fun injected, extremely frugal, not all that practical, had a sense of sportiness but not really a sportscar. How is teh CRZ none of that? The only reason why the CRX had so much notoriety was cuz you could swap the engine, strip it down, and essentially make a lightweight track car out of them, but stock? It's just a compact hatchback. You could technically do the same with the CRZ I'm sure.
I mean what has Honda really lost that its competitors still have? Is the civic more sportier than the corolla? That's a resounding yes. Is the accord more fun to drive than the camry? It's like comparing beige to off white, but yes.
I mean why is it that people think Honda is some fabled manufacturer that produced all kinds of accessible exciting cars that were wildly successful? And now that we have cars like the GTIs, MS3, Cobalt SS (yeah Cobalt), WRXs, EVOs, gen coupe, etc etc, suddenly people are realizing honda didnt bring that much guns to the table. So what happened since the 90s to Honda? Nothing. It's jsut that now teh competition stepped it up here, think abotu it, had Nissan brought over teh SR20DET pwoered cars that ranged from the lowly pulsar to the silvia, had mazda brought over their turbo four banger cars, toyota with more alltracs (and not charge a friggin mortgage on them), etc etc, people wouldve made the same arguments then.
The Accord is uninspiring? Uhm... duh?
The CRZ is whatever he said? Uhm... duh? I mean look at the CRX, great little car, but thats what it was, a commuter car with some fun injected, extremely frugal, not all that practical, had a sense of sportiness but not really a sportscar. How is teh CRZ none of that? The only reason why the CRX had so much notoriety was cuz you could swap the engine, strip it down, and essentially make a lightweight track car out of them, but stock? It's just a compact hatchback. You could technically do the same with the CRZ I'm sure.
I mean what has Honda really lost that its competitors still have? Is the civic more sportier than the corolla? That's a resounding yes. Is the accord more fun to drive than the camry? It's like comparing beige to off white, but yes.
I mean why is it that people think Honda is some fabled manufacturer that produced all kinds of accessible exciting cars that were wildly successful? And now that we have cars like the GTIs, MS3, Cobalt SS (yeah Cobalt), WRXs, EVOs, gen coupe, etc etc, suddenly people are realizing honda didnt bring that much guns to the table. So what happened since the 90s to Honda? Nothing. It's jsut that now teh competition stepped it up here, think abotu it, had Nissan brought over teh SR20DET pwoered cars that ranged from the lowly pulsar to the silvia, had mazda brought over their turbo four banger cars, toyota with more alltracs (and not charge a friggin mortgage on them), etc etc, people wouldve made the same arguments then.
Nope. They were never exciting. All that is pure nostalgia. Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru...they all have had a more exciting line up than Honda. Sure, Honda was in F1...but you can't buy an F1 car. Look at all the other japanese companies...they're on their 4th, 5th, 6th gen of whatever sporty car they have. They've had numerous model changes.
The NSX had a slight refresh, and so did the S2000. There never was a 4th gen S2000 or a 3rd gen NSX. With that said, I still think Honda is a great company...and nope, I don't think they've lost their mojo. Just my opinion.
10-12-2010, 01:00 PM
#19
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Saint_Spinner,Oct 12 2010, 12:39 PM
Couldn't agree with you more. This is the biggest problem I have with Honda Fan boys...they keep claiming that Honda has lost its edge. What edge has Honda ever had?!?! They made an NSX, and then an S2000 and all of a sudden its now an "exciting" company?! Two cars don't mean squat for a company. Honda always has, and still does make good commuter cars.
10-12-2010, 02:38 PM
#20
Registered User
Originally Posted by 97ITR208,Oct 12 2010, 01:00 PM
You are completely forgetting the fact that they made (and still make) Type Rs. Honda doesn't just make cars for America. Some of the stuff they have for sale in other countries are cooler (and more desireable due to the fact that they are affordable limited production cars) than the standard EVO and STi
Yes, I agree that other countries get cooler Hondas, but it doesn't change the fact that they are known for they're reliable, efficient and ergonomic commuter cars more so than they're sports cars.If you want affordable "sporty" cars, there are tons to choose from other companies. As stated before, because Honda isn't known for their sports cars (to majority of the public), trying to sell something like the Type R is extremely hard and expensive for them. They lose money on every S2000, NSX and Type R they sell.
Thats also the reason we hardly get the "R" models from VW. I'd love to have a Scirocco R or hell, even the R20 Gti...but it might not happen. Does this mean VW is losing its edge? We didn't get the Bashurst FD Rx-7 or even the spirit...does that mean Mazda has lost its mojo? How about the focus RS? Only Europe and perhaps Australia gets that model. Has Ford lost their mojo?
I bet there are a bunch of folks at Honda that would love to bring all the Type-Rs over...but the bean counters say otherwise.