ND2 vs SS 1LE
07-10-2019, 09:20 PM
#101
I do trackdays every year. Been doing them for 20 years now. 2 wheels and 4. I’ve owned a Subaru before but don’t now, my AWD turbo hatch is from Ford. I’ve done many track days in the rain, even did one last year in the snow at Utah Motorsports Park. 32 degrees with snow falling, it just wasn’t sticking. And we were on MPSS with windows down. Only people who’ve handed me my ass were professional race drivers who instruct on the side. Someone in a much more expensive car blasting me down the straight doesn’’t mean anything to me. Neither does someone in a super car getting me in a turn. On 2 wheels I’ve had some 15 year old kid on a 250 smoker wax my ass and that didn’t bother me either as he was headed up the ranks to the pros. Not everyone that goes to the track worries about their track dick. If I had a benny for every juiced up rider or driver out there with a chip on their shoulder I’d be a rich man. It’s worse on bikes than in cars but there are always someone in every session with ED. I’ve done many tracks in the US, Laguna Seca, COTA probably the most noteworthy. I think these compromises you mention are only in people’s minds.
It’s fun in the rain. I’m passing 6 figure RWD cars at will all day. Some people straight up bail when it rains. Yeah you can get me down the straight in the warn/dry but you don’t win anything at a trackday. No contracts handed out, no trophies, no brollies, and no champagne unless you bring your own. And good luck getting me in a turn. When I need to get my straight line fix I’m on 2 wheels and you’d see fly right by you like you were standing still. Many of us here do trackdays. Nothing changes the fact that some cars are just faster in all weather conditions. I’ll take the straight line hit for that myself.
Don, for grins I drove a ‘19 SS 1LE tonight. Silver, black hood, only option was the $1300 data recorder. Visibility was poor. Windshield was tiny, and the view through the rear view mirror was minuscule. Car had 10 miles on it. I put 17 on it hitting some underpasses and some highway on ramps. It was a boat. Large, and you could definitely feel the weight. Very reminiscent of the last Mustang GT PP I drove. I wasn’t that impressed at all. Tried the rev match on the paddle, was a cool feature. Brakes were solid, shifter was nice, great engagement. I did manage to get it to wheel hop through a hard left onto some s’s close to my house. I didn’t engage launch control (I’m sure it has it) but midrange wasn’t anything I would call spectacular. The HUD was cool. You can raise or lower it, it projects out like it’s in front of the hood. I cycled it and think it had a g meter or something on it. At first I though it was a tach but it was some sort of G meter I think. You could also increase/decrease the brightness. The base stereo was awful (Yeah I know no one buys one for that). Recaros were nice too. I had zero interest after driving it. I much prefer the previous gen Camaro. A good friend has a 2013 ZL1. Visibility is much better and it’s a completely different experience with the blower. I love his car. He put ceramic rotors on it, and race seats in it for the track. I checked on those and you could get one for the same money with extremely low miles. I would take it all day over the newer Camaro. You stomp on the pedal in his car and that thing provides a whole different experience.
I like the GT350 very much too and almost bought one but preferred the turbo AWD hatch. I guess I don’t like the size and weight of the pony’s despite having much higher hp/tq. There is definitely something to a lighter, smaller car, even if it’s slower. Some will prefer the machete, others the scalpel. If you want both it’s like you have to buy a Porsche with a flat six or a turbo.
It’s fun in the rain. I’m passing 6 figure RWD cars at will all day. Some people straight up bail when it rains. Yeah you can get me down the straight in the warn/dry but you don’t win anything at a trackday. No contracts handed out, no trophies, no brollies, and no champagne unless you bring your own. And good luck getting me in a turn. When I need to get my straight line fix I’m on 2 wheels and you’d see fly right by you like you were standing still. Many of us here do trackdays. Nothing changes the fact that some cars are just faster in all weather conditions. I’ll take the straight line hit for that myself.
Don, for grins I drove a ‘19 SS 1LE tonight. Silver, black hood, only option was the $1300 data recorder. Visibility was poor. Windshield was tiny, and the view through the rear view mirror was minuscule. Car had 10 miles on it. I put 17 on it hitting some underpasses and some highway on ramps. It was a boat. Large, and you could definitely feel the weight. Very reminiscent of the last Mustang GT PP I drove. I wasn’t that impressed at all. Tried the rev match on the paddle, was a cool feature. Brakes were solid, shifter was nice, great engagement. I did manage to get it to wheel hop through a hard left onto some s’s close to my house. I didn’t engage launch control (I’m sure it has it) but midrange wasn’t anything I would call spectacular. The HUD was cool. You can raise or lower it, it projects out like it’s in front of the hood. I cycled it and think it had a g meter or something on it. At first I though it was a tach but it was some sort of G meter I think. You could also increase/decrease the brightness. The base stereo was awful (Yeah I know no one buys one for that). Recaros were nice too. I had zero interest after driving it. I much prefer the previous gen Camaro. A good friend has a 2013 ZL1. Visibility is much better and it’s a completely different experience with the blower. I love his car. He put ceramic rotors on it, and race seats in it for the track. I checked on those and you could get one for the same money with extremely low miles. I would take it all day over the newer Camaro. You stomp on the pedal in his car and that thing provides a whole different experience.
I like the GT350 very much too and almost bought one but preferred the turbo AWD hatch. I guess I don’t like the size and weight of the pony’s despite having much higher hp/tq. There is definitely something to a lighter, smaller car, even if it’s slower. Some will prefer the machete, others the scalpel. If you want both it’s like you have to buy a Porsche with a flat six or a turbo.
In alot of ways I feel like buying the more powerful car is more for others than for myself. Meaning look bros 450hp and awesome track times. Dont get me wrong, who doesn't like power and fast cars, but do you really need that to have fun?
Note the big insurgence for old air cooled porsches, people just want that visceral experience even though the majority of them cant keep up with the ND.
But the hot hatch argument is becoming more compelling by the minute because it really is the all purpose fun car. Back roads, check. Bros night out, check. Track day, check. Cars and coffee, check. Take the wife hiking, check. Take the bike out, check. But goddammit I just like two or three doors.
07-11-2019, 03:56 AM
#102
I had a Focus RS and I didn't really like the ownership of a hot hatch. It was super fast compared to my S2000 and a lot easier to drive around town, but it wasn't anything compared to my S2000. I now daily a FR-S and prefer that much more than the RS as well. I also am an avid hiker, biker, and do a lot of track days. I felt bad putting a bike in a 40k car, but that might just be me. I have learned to stay away from cars that are a "tuned" version of the base model, like RS to Focus and STi to Impreza.
My next car will be a ND2 when I no longer have to worry about a winter car. S2000 is a pure track car so I miss having a convertible as a daily.
It seems to me your mind is made up. It may sound immature, but I don't want to be part of the Camaro crowd. I see a ND owner and I envy them and respect them as an enthusiast. It's one of my favorite things about the S2000 community. Before the stance guys bought cheap versions, this forum was almost all enthusiasts and guys that loved the car.
My next car will be a ND2 when I no longer have to worry about a winter car. S2000 is a pure track car so I miss having a convertible as a daily.
It seems to me your mind is made up. It may sound immature, but I don't want to be part of the Camaro crowd. I see a ND owner and I envy them and respect them as an enthusiast. It's one of my favorite things about the S2000 community. Before the stance guys bought cheap versions, this forum was almost all enthusiasts and guys that loved the car.
07-11-2019, 07:45 AM
#103
The miata crowd around here isnt much better, seems like the na and nb are the new civics now.
I keep going back and forth, but I had the realization that if I wait just a year or so, I'd be able to score an ND2 for 25k, so that's definitely something to consider. My projection is that it'll bottom out at 15k or so for a long time so that's and acceptable depreciation curve vs buying new and paying all the fees.
I keep going back and forth, but I had the realization that if I wait just a year or so, I'd be able to score an ND2 for 25k, so that's definitely something to consider. My projection is that it'll bottom out at 15k or so for a long time so that's and acceptable depreciation curve vs buying new and paying all the fees.
07-11-2019, 08:13 AM
#104
Pretty spot on only I was impressed with it. I had the gt350, the engine is music but once you get over it, the 1le is a comparable car with a more useable and durable engine.
In alot of ways I feel like buying the more powerful car is more for others than for myself. Meaning look bros 450hp and awesome track times. Dont get me wrong, who doesn't like power and fast cars, but do you really need that to have fun?
Note the big insurgence for old air cooled porsches, people just want that visceral experience even though the majority of them cant keep up with the ND.
But the hot hatch argument is becoming more compelling by the minute because it really is the all purpose fun car. Back roads, check. Bros night out, check. Track day, check. Cars and coffee, check. Take the wife hiking, check. Take the bike out, check. But goddammit I just like two or three doors.
In alot of ways I feel like buying the more powerful car is more for others than for myself. Meaning look bros 450hp and awesome track times. Dont get me wrong, who doesn't like power and fast cars, but do you really need that to have fun?
Note the big insurgence for old air cooled porsches, people just want that visceral experience even though the majority of them cant keep up with the ND.
But the hot hatch argument is becoming more compelling by the minute because it really is the all purpose fun car. Back roads, check. Bros night out, check. Track day, check. Cars and coffee, check. Take the wife hiking, check. Take the bike out, check. But goddammit I just like two or three doors.
Like you, my preference would be a 3 door hatch. AWD, turbocharged V4, and f'ing ground clearance. My front splitter is low but definitely workable. I haven't scraped it yet. That SS 1 LE, oh my, I forgot to mention this.....we are exiting the dealer, and I had to stop, hit reverse and use another exit. The salesman asked what I was doing and I had to explain to him if we left that normal way there is no way I wouldn't scrape the front splitter. I don't think there is any way I could drive that car and not scrape it up and I'm extremely careful about such things to the point of being anal about ingress/egress into any parking lot. Even in my car, I'll pre-scout any exit out of a parking lot and take many diagonally just to be sure. In that SS, there is just no way in hell I could drive it regularly and not scrape it up. It would be impossible.
Likewise, the Voodoo, loved it man. I driven this car many many times. The first time the owner kind of jumped my ass about taking it to redline. It was in my subconscious to shift the thing around 6250-6500 rpm's. Just instinctive. He was like, quit being a beotch, take it up redline. Not used to driving a 8k redline V8. Once I started going 1-3rd and hitting near redline, I wanted it bad, and came within a millimeter of buying one several times. But like you said, once you get over that, it's still large, heavy, and I have just never liked large cars, ever. I always end up selling them. My car is small but not claustrophobic small if that makes sense. Inside it feel spacious enough but from the cockpit it feels like a solid smaller car. I love that. Love my cockpit, love the incredible chassis and drivetrain, just wish I didn't have to deal with Ford. Not the biggest fan of theirs. The only reason it was doable was it was made in Germany and it's a European Ford. Panel gaps, build quality, are incredibly stellar. My friend with the GT350, the panel gaps are as bad as an Ecoboost Mustang. Terrible.
I'd say the same about the BRZ/FRS. You look at it and think it would be super tight, uncomfortable and claustrophobic, it's anything but that. Cockpit is very spacious and the seat, drivers or passengers is set up for tall folks. I couldn't believe it when I first drove one after they came out. I instantly was able to adjust to the seat and got an almost perfect or ideal driving position, and I'm 6'2". Backrest almost completely vertical. IIRC, I had to move the seat up a little bit from its' furthest extension back and that is unicorn rare for me as any other car it's all the way back and the backrest has to minimally be tilted back. Not in that car. If that damn thing had 40-50 more HP, I'd own one and I would say it's the best thing out there, period. I love the look of the thing, and the cockpit, chassis, and steering feel, and for my size and preferences is one of the best out there period. Tires, cheap, tire width and sidewall height, so many choices. My goodness if they'd just drop the FA DIT 2.0 out of the WRX into it, forget about it man. Many of us here would own one. I'm friends with a guy who owns many cars, many of those 6 figures, he is part of an auto group that owns many dealerships here. He and his partners own something like 20 dealerships, many makes. He's let me drive most every car he has (But not the Ferrari) because I earned his trust to even take one of them out by myself. He said the same thing about the BRZ. Turbo, supercharger, whatever, and the common enthusiast wouldn't have any reason to own anything else. He said that and he's got money I will never have.
It's truly a great car. The motor bothers many, not me. It's not as sweet revving as the S2k, but it's not as bad as some make out either. It just needs more midrange. If I wasn't an AWD snob it's probably what I would own. I'm not as fond of the S2k as many here because I'm tall and because I ride sportbikes most every weekend. I loved the S2k chassis, and loved the brakes. I could brake so deep into a turn before turning. Last millimeter of pavement then jerk the wheel. But it was just so loud inside and having owned half a dozen Honda inline 4 literbikes, the motor was never anything that special to me at all, just felt like one of their liter inline 4 in my bikes, just didn't rev as high. I get it for the non-motorcyclist. Top down, open air, chassis, brakes, shifter/gearbox, and "enough" power. It's a classic. I so wished they made a coupe version and I'd still own it. If we could get the F20 in the BRZ, oh my. But riding motorcycles and living in a hot as hell geographic region, the times I could use the drop top were limited to just weeks a year. A few weeks in the spring, and a few weeks in the fall. 4-6 weeks a year and it was loud AF, especially on the highway. Here where I live the S2k taught me that drop tops are pointless, for me, here. And I hated stop lights with the top down. Always felt like a tard. I use earplugs every time I ride so I should have probably worn them every time I drove it with the top down.
Buying cars for others is something I have never done. I honestly don't give a F about what anyone thinks about my vehicles. I truly don't. Image life is nothing I ever cared about. What the neighbors think, what my friends think of my purchases means zero, they don't pay my bills, neither do strangers. I tend to like sleepers and "quick" cars that people don't pay much attention to. I also don't buy cars or bikes based off metrics, the kind of metrics they use in comparisons. Who gives a damn, nobody races for real money or trophies. That's still f'ing imaginary internet rhino dookie. And dude, I live in the image city where that's all most care about. These people here, they buy a vehicle for the attention and "look" of it. It's all about image and I'm so the opposite. I go drive everything I can. I've driven most of the cars on the market, attainable and the unattainable. With so many friends in the business here it's easy to get a ride or get a drive. Between the tuning shop I'm friends with (formerly Cobb tuning center), the body shop (He does all the dealership Ferrari/Lambo/Mac/Porsche work here), and my friend in the PPF business, I get to see, drive, or get a ride in most everything. I've learned that many times the comparos and journalists are dead wrong. They place too much emphasis on the stat sheet. And they rarely drive the vehicles in inclement weather. Almost 99% of comparos are done in ideal conditions which to me doesn't represent reality, certainly not where I live where we get 3 seasons a year, and f ton of rain, including flood conditions on the reg, especially in the spring and winter. Rarely do we get snow, we can go 3-4 years before we get an ice or snow hit, but my God do we get rain, cats and dogs every year. This is why I gravitated to the all wheel drivetrain. 2 sets of tires and you can mob all year.
Great discussion. I still think you should go drive any and everything out there you are remotely interested in. F the internet. We are all different. Different sizes, different preferences and especially different geographic regions. Geography, and human size is so different and the most important factors in choosing which car. What will you realistically use it for? Online everyone thinks they are a track star and they act like that's all it will be used for. It will sit there in the garage until the trackday. This is such bs. Track time, even the hardcore guys that go every month, track time will still be less than 10% of the miles in that car. That's why I love the AWD performance cars so much. I loathe sedans with gusto. Hatch gives me some mild utility where I lose nothing compared to a sedan and gain less rear overhang for handling purposes and the hatch for carrying stuff, just a larger rear opening is all it is compared to a sedan. All season capability. So with another set of tires it can be used, driving briskly in any weather condition, road or track. I can take my MTB with me, throw it in the hatch, or put a bike rack on it. I can put my k9 unit and the dog crate in it. Use it as a DD (I don't), take it to the track with mild prep. Yeah it's only "master" is all season capability so it's very much a jack of all trades but it is the master of one, all weather capability. On the internet it's always warm and dry, in reality, even here in the South, we get cold temps, rain, floods, where winters or all seasons become necessary if you want to exploit it in the cold. And for my needs, nothing beats that traction a good all wheel drivetrain provides. Many don't have the need for it. I do, because I don't want my performance car to sit idle in the winter and just be a toy. I get excited to drive mine in the nastiest of conditions because it excels there. I actually get around quicker in those conditions running errands or going to visit with friends because people drive like absolute S here. If it's raining but not sticking, and the pavement is bone dry people drive like it's cats and dogs rain. If it's raining here and the roads are damp people drive like it's snowing. If it's cats and dogs raining, flood like conditions, they drive like black ice is everywhere. And if it's snowing or iced, you don't even wanna drive because people turn into zombies because they drive on crap all seasons or summers. I watch the news in those conditions and you'll see pony cars on every channel stuck on overpasses or playing bumper cars. Same with trucks. Smart drivers will throw sand bags or whatever weight into the pickup bed and do just fine. That's 1%. Rest of them are slipping and sliding and crashing and filing claims.
Go drive every damn thing you have remote interest in. Something will speak to your driving soul. And it probably won't be what the internet says you should do, especially on a forum.
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JonBoy (07-11-2019)
07-11-2019, 08:52 AM
#108
I've also been fortunate to gave driven many cars, and especially the cars I'm interested in buying. These two perplexed me as there wasn't a clear winner as they were great at their respective ends of the spectrum, but both with compromises.
Me personally, I buy cars for myself, but it's always fun to have something that just rocks the socks, makes for fun ball busting, but even more than that power is fun. The ND2 is the first miata I've actually seriously considered because now it has enough beans to be fun.
I've owned an FRS, and I love everything about it but the engine. If it had the wrx motor in it, I'd still have it and probably would've bought it new. The s15 Silvia is a dream car of mine, loved driving it while I was in japan and man that would've been perfection.
I am leaning more towards the nd2 rf though. The problem with the camaro and the shelby or pony cars in general is that while you're driving it around it doesn't feel any different than a Camry that you have to be very mindful of. The frs, s2000, and nd are just fun riding around in. Small, low to the ground, nimble, just has a fun anxious personality, a nice change of pace car that I can enjoy with minimal stress.
Me personally, I buy cars for myself, but it's always fun to have something that just rocks the socks, makes for fun ball busting, but even more than that power is fun. The ND2 is the first miata I've actually seriously considered because now it has enough beans to be fun.
I've owned an FRS, and I love everything about it but the engine. If it had the wrx motor in it, I'd still have it and probably would've bought it new. The s15 Silvia is a dream car of mine, loved driving it while I was in japan and man that would've been perfection.
I am leaning more towards the nd2 rf though. The problem with the camaro and the shelby or pony cars in general is that while you're driving it around it doesn't feel any different than a Camry that you have to be very mindful of. The frs, s2000, and nd are just fun riding around in. Small, low to the ground, nimble, just has a fun anxious personality, a nice change of pace car that I can enjoy with minimal stress.
07-11-2019, 09:10 AM
#109
Holy wall of text! I've driven a few Focus RS's and actually prefer them over the base Mustang GT for similar reasons, but as you said you also have to deal with Ford, which is a big turn off. They are mighty proud of that car too and at $42k, the economy car roots make it a tough pill to swallow. For me the compromises are trading lap times for utility (tire section width, engine cooling/longevity, FWD layout, added failure points w/AWD, etc). If you're buying a track car that you can daily it's tough to beat a 1LE, but if you're buying a daily that you can track a FoRS or Golf R would more sense especially if you don't live in SoCal where it almost never rains. The Miata is a weekender that you can track or daily and represents a unique driving experience at the expense of utility.. It's a tough call, but really there is no wrong answer. The fun part is in the discovery of which car really speaks to you..
07-11-2019, 12:16 PM
#110
I've also been fortunate to gave driven many cars, and especially the cars I'm interested in buying. These two perplexed me as there wasn't a clear winner as they were great at their respective ends of the spectrum, but both with compromises.
Me personally, I buy cars for myself, but it's always fun to have something that just rocks the socks, makes for fun ball busting, but even more than that power is fun. The ND2 is the first miata I've actually seriously considered because now it has enough beans to be fun.
I've owned an FRS, and I love everything about it but the engine. If it had the wrx motor in it, I'd still have it and probably would've bought it new. The s15 Silvia is a dream car of mine, loved driving it while I was in japan and man that would've been perfection.
I am leaning more towards the nd2 rf though. The problem with the camaro and the shelby or pony cars in general is that while you're driving it around it doesn't feel any different than a Camry that you have to be very mindful of. The frs, s2000, and nd are just fun riding around in. Small, low to the ground, nimble, just has a fun anxious personality, a nice change of pace car that I can enjoy with minimal stress.
Me personally, I buy cars for myself, but it's always fun to have something that just rocks the socks, makes for fun ball busting, but even more than that power is fun. The ND2 is the first miata I've actually seriously considered because now it has enough beans to be fun.
I've owned an FRS, and I love everything about it but the engine. If it had the wrx motor in it, I'd still have it and probably would've bought it new. The s15 Silvia is a dream car of mine, loved driving it while I was in japan and man that would've been perfection.
I am leaning more towards the nd2 rf though. The problem with the camaro and the shelby or pony cars in general is that while you're driving it around it doesn't feel any different than a Camry that you have to be very mindful of. The frs, s2000, and nd are just fun riding around in. Small, low to the ground, nimble, just has a fun anxious personality, a nice change of pace car that I can enjoy with minimal stress.
