Chris Stack

If you look at it in terms of enthusiasts, sure, RWD trumps FWD. But really, the old Cadillac STS used to have like 300hp, and was FWD, and there was never any big problem with that because it could have a jillion hp, but the target market (old dudes) wouldn't hit the gas hard enough to cause much torque steer anyway.

I think it is mostly a prestige/placebo thing. Plenty of enthusiasts claim they've gotta have RWD, but the vast majority of people don't know the difference, and couldn't tell the difference. I'm going to postulate that 90% of the time, if you are driving hard enough on a public road to where you can tell the difference between FWD and RWD in your car, you are being an assclown and deserve to have your car understeer you off into a tree or guardrail.

diabolus2k

Torque steer on a FWD car with 250hp+ is no fun...

North Star

Most companies went the FWD way because it was more fuel efficient. Now that technologies have gotten better, companies have gone back to RWD because it can be just as fuel efficient, and can handle more power.

no_really

um, not that I am suggesting you are fudging facts to reflect your personal opinion here, but how are the American car makers "slow to the party?" Outside of Lexus and Infiniti, name one RWD sedan from a Japanese maker. And Lexus and Infiniti were blatant attempts to emulate Mercedes and BMW from the get-go. Chrysler dropped RWD sedans entirely a decade and a half ago, while Ford never stopped making them, and GM let them go for maybe five years or so, all based on customer demand.

FWIW, Mercedes and BMW != "European car makers." They are merely two of many. And their entry-level offerings are of limited impact on European streets, unlike the FWD models from VW, Seat, Ford, et al. "The Europeans" most certainly went FWD, minus three makes. Seems to me that the current RWD offerings from American makers are simply returning to what they do best, not "playing catch-up."

And one could easily argue that American car makers "forced" Japanese makers in the 70's to stick to the bottom of the price scale, as they certainly weren't capable of producing a car to rival models from the Big Three (or anyone else) on anything but price. FWD is cheaper to produce, so that's what they made. There are less drivetrain losses from FWD, so that was the preferred platform for economy when gas shortages were fresh in memory. Everyone made weak cars in the 70's in America due to stricter regulations, the switch to unleaded which made high octane gas rare to unavailable, and insurance companies geting silly with rating methods (power output the premium cost, not statistical data). For Japanese auto makers, market conditions couldn't get better.

Times are different now. High octane gas is everywhere, engine outputs keep growing, efficiency is at a peak, technology and regulation are more or less in sync, and insurance companies use risk assessment based on statistics rather than knee-jerk reactions. Hence, powerful RWD sedans are making a comeback in the market. But while Ford, GM, and Chrysler all have a horse in the race, no "regular" Japanese makes do. Who's slow to the party again?

no_really

wow. Obviously written by someone who has more opinions than experience.

For starters, the FWD Cadillac's don't have much of a problem with torque steer because a well-designed drivetrain won't. Torque steer is mainly a result of one half-shaft being longer than the other. It's called good engineering, not "old farts driving slowly." Do you seriously believe a 40-50-something guy buys a 300 hp dual overhead cam V8 with any intention other than putting his foot to the floor? Wake up.

As far as noticing the difference while driving, see "gravel road," or "snow and ice," or even "wet road." Hell, "cloverleaf." There are plenty of everyday situations where the differences between RWD vs. FWD are obvious, and the very same characteristics that make RWD superior on a track make it superior when traction is compromised on the street. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have the rear step out on a curve on a public road than slide right off head first. But then, I'm not an idiot.

WarrenW

You forgot about reilability. American cars had notoriously bad reliability. Japanese cars didn't breakdown half as much as the American cars.

Warren

JonBoy

[QUOTE=no_really,Aug 3 2006, 01:35 PM]um, not that I am suggesting you are fudging facts to reflect your personal opinion here, but how are the American car makers "slow to the party?"

JonBoy

You're kidding, right? How many clueless 90 year olds driving in the left lane at 10 mph below the limit does it take for you to see that most buyers of the really big sedans (Cadillacs and Ford/Lincolns) aren't fast drivers? Holy cow, I can't believe you said that. They median age for those vehicles is something like 65. I'm not joking!

If there is a spokescar for the underdriven vehicles, it's got to be a Cadillac DeVille or Lincoln Towncar. Purplish white hair on a grandma that can't see over the hood is their poster...err...child.

Stuttgart951

Im of the opinion that it all boils down to costs.

A FWD platform is cheaper to build than a RWD platform simply because there are fewer parts to fabricate and make work together.

That said... FWD has a reputation for being better/safer for a couple different reasons.

One public opinion: 'FWD is better in the wet/snow.' Well... it depends. Its easier to control acceleration because when the tires exceed grip capacity, they spin and the car doesnt really go anywhere. In a RWD platform, the same thing happens, but the car will usually slide to one side because, physically, rear drive is pushing the car and front drive is pulling it. In a straight line, considering only acceleration and wet weather, FWD is easier for the layman. For someone who understands how to control a car, FWD offers fewer options to avoid mishaps.

Another: 'FWD is safer in all conditions.' Again, for the layman, yes. FWD produces understeer in a turn under acceleration. When traction is lost, the immediate reaction of 95% of the people on the road is to slam on the brakes. In a FWD car, this is exactly the right thing to do (within reason) because it will return traction to the tires without it (the front). In a RWD car, as everyone here should know, this is the exact *opposite* of what you want to do. Its counter intuitive, which is why RWD is viewed as 'more dangerous.' In reality, most people just dont know how to control a RWD car.

On a track, RWD is optimal because it properly accomodates redistribution of weight. When youre accelerating, the weight is shifter rearward. When youre accelerating and turning, the weight is transfered rearward and to the side. All of these conditions result in added grip where you want it - on the drive wheels. Under identicle conditions, a FWD would be struggling to maintain drive axle grip.

A good analogy is running, I suppose. Do your hamstrings pull you forward or do your quads push you forward? The latter. Why? Because its both more efficient and more effective.

no_really

learn to read, jonny boy. I wasn't the first to make any statement that rwd sedans were making a comeback. I wasn't even responding to a post of yours. And I didn't write "American RWD sedans are selling like hot cakes, thousands more every month!!!111omgbbq!" Yes, I meant "comeback" as in more options out there than there were 10 years ago.

BTW, I hardly think Lexus and Infiniti make up the entire Japanese auto industry any more than I believe BMW and Mercedes can pass for the entire European auto industry. I wouldn't even call Lexus and Infiniti "major" brands, when Toyota sold more Camry's than all Lexus and Infiniti models combined.

The claim was that the Americans are lagging behind the Japanese and European makers in bringing rwd cars to market, when the reality is the American makes are the only ones putting out *new* rwd sedans. Surely you can't argue that? Lexus and Infiniti continue to ape BMW and Mercedes, dutifully putting out the same sedans they've put out for the last decade plus, and no other Japanese brand has a rwd sedan on the streets here. While GM has pushed a couple out the door, Ford has as well, as has Chrysler. Well, Infiniti DID bring out a new model in the G35 sedan, which is nice.

How could anyone argue that "the Americans" are "slow to the party" when they are the only ones to do anything different in the last decade? Doesn't everyone else have to be AT the party in order for someone to be late? Because Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, and Subaru haven't even gotten dressed to go out yet :/ Hell, GM and Chrysler just went home to get a shower and a change of clothes, leaving Ford, M-B, and BMW to hold the place down, with Lexus and Infiniti sitting in the corner being johnny-come-lately's. Sorry if that upsets your personal worldview.

In 2003, Cadillac released the CTS. In 2005, Chrysler released the 300C. It was back in 2000 that Lincoln released an all-new rwd model, and since then, no new rwd sedan has come out of Japan, just updates of existing model lines from the two up-scale labels. Seems to me we are still waiting for some new thing from the rest of the Japanese brands.

You have nothing to argue here. I don't know what your issue is. You post contradictory nonsense, quarrel over things that aren't even debateable, and generally just post to be posting, it seems. "that one is showing no growth (despite a slight increase last month" - wtf? Who even cares that much? I don't like when someone goes out of their way to rip apart my post for no reason, and I'm sure you ar the same way. So what gives?