Car Talk - Non S2000 General Motoring and Non S2000 Car Talk

Caterham engine failure

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Old Feb 17, 2009 | 03:18 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by MarkB,Feb 17 2009, 10:54 AM
Which could point to the scavenge pump.

If it's damaged internally and is cavitating, it could be the cause of the fluctuating oil pressures which in turn could lead to premature failure of a component due to starvation somewhere. Especially if Jo continued to drive the car hard after first noticing the symptoms.

Jo, is the scavenge pump driven by a toothed belf off the crank? If it's failing it might be causing the drag on the crankshaft, which you'd see as the car seeming like it's losing power.
Graham managed to drive one of the BatCats for at least a good portion of lap at Anglesey with the drive belt for the scavenge pump lying on the circuit

I'm sure he'll chip in, but i don't think he noticed any drop off in performance for that lap. It was the oil light coming on that made him come into the pits. Car seemed to run ok when the belt was refitted too. God only knows what long term damage it caused.

I'd be surprised if a failing scavenge pump was able to blow out excess oil. More likely it would produce less oil pressure. If it was a failing scavenge pump I'd expect that the loss in power was the engine starting to seize due to lack of lubrication. I don't think a failing pump could cause enough drag to actually cause the engine to slow. I'm sure the pump belt isn't rate at 130ish BHP.

Are the plugs oiled?

When the piston cracked on the Ford it still ran, but there was a rattle from that cylinder and the engine lacked power due to lack of compression on one cylinder and oil got into the intake system via the positive crankcase ventilation system which oiled the plugs.
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Old Feb 17, 2009 | 03:36 AM
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Not sure on the plugs, don't have a plug removal tool (I know I know).

All in all its sounding pretty terminal - my gut feel is that you are right and the reluctance to rev was due to the engine starting to seize (despite hte fact there was lots of oil in the system somewhere). So the crux now is what caused that in the first place, and is it plus the damage it's caused, repairable

I might be in need of a stiff brandy or something tomorrow evening!
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Old Feb 17, 2009 | 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dreamer,Feb 17 2009, 12:36 PM
I might be in need of a stiff brandy or something tomorrow evening!
Oi, no matter what happens - lay off my brandy
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Old Feb 17, 2009 | 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lower,Feb 17 2009, 12:18 PM
I'd be surprised if a failing scavenge pump was able to blow out excess oil. More likely it would produce less oil pressure. If it was a failing scavenge pump I'd expect that the loss in power was the engine starting to seize due to lack of lubrication. I don't think a failing pump could cause enough drag to actually cause the engine to slow. I'm sure the pump belt isn't rate at 130ish BHP.
More to do with a failing pump starving the engine of oil, slowly causing a problem to develop. If the impellor is breaking up, the resulting cavitation might be the cause of the milky oil, and as it broke up more the pump might have been jamming. Agree though, it's not likely to drag 130bhp, even with a toothed belt, and if it jammed I'd expect the belt to get shredded before the crank was slowed.

Just thinking out loud really (imagine sucking of teeth and needing mugs of tea)

But I suppose the problem might have been failure of something due to oil starvation thanks to a broken pump.

Or not
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Old Feb 17, 2009 | 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dreamer,Feb 17 2009, 12:36 PM
Not sure on the plugs, don't have a plug removal tool (I know I know).

All in all its sounding pretty terminal - my gut feel is that you are right and the reluctance to rev was due to the engine starting to seize (despite hte fact there was lots of oil in the system somewhere). So the crux now is what caused that in the first place, and is it plus the damage it's caused, repairable

I might be in need of a stiff brandy or something tomorrow evening!
Jo, don't worry about what you don't know about.

If it hasn't thrown a rod out the side of the block, it's probably not terminal.

And everything is repairable. If it's only blow-by then it could be as simple as a new set of rings.
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Old Feb 17, 2009 | 05:16 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by MarkB,Feb 17 2009, 01:57 PM
Jo, don't worry about what you don't know about.

If it hasn't thrown a rod out the side of the block, it's probably not terminal.

And everything is repairable. If it's only blow-by then it could be as simple as a new set of rings.


Lack of information is frustrating, but incorrect internet diagnosis scaremongering (directed at myself) just worries you more!

With any luck it will just be a cracked piston or rings.
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Old Feb 17, 2009 | 06:37 AM
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I would firstly suggest a crankcase breathing problem; used to blow the dipstick out of my 124, becasuse on a kinked pipe! Like Mark say, if it's not scavenging properly or there's too much crank pressure, it could dull performance.

The other possibility may be K-related; IIRC the 1.6 and 1.8s have ridiculously long cylinder sleeves down into the crankcase for the long stroke, so they're an interference fit (yes, that doesn't sound right!). What can happen is that the cylinder sleeve can sometimes slip down slightly, giving the impression of a blown head gasket; sliming, loss of power, pressurising the oil/coolant etc.

I've now exhausted my special K knowledge, but IIRC, the problem can be fixed and it's not usually terminal.
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Old Feb 18, 2009 | 12:04 AM
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Right well wish me luck I'm off now! Got it out last night (on the trailer) and it's lost a fair bit more oil as there's now a big puddle under there
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Old Feb 18, 2009 | 12:28 AM
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Well today's the day

I can't really add much but the thing that forced my hand with my engine rebuild was excessive oil being blown out (it has always spat some out), a slight chug and a reluctance to fly up hairy hill like it used to.

When the engine was stripped down, it turned out to be just piston rings.

The rest of the engine was in very good condition which is quite impressive considering the abuse it's had and that it was still on the standard chocolate pistons which are prone to failure.

I reckon the scariest thing is that you're forced to use that particular engine builder and I doubt they're the cheapest.

That said, you know you're going to get a good job done so it's not really a bad thing.

My new grenade means I'll probably be starting several threads like this over the coming year. What have I done?

Good luck!
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Old Feb 18, 2009 | 04:18 AM
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Just heard from Jo.

It isn't a pretty picture but it isn't dead either
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