I've just driven the future
Former Moderator
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 24,771
Likes: 311
From: Stanmore
Originally Posted by MarkB,Feb 15 2011, 05:24 PM
There were 55 electric cars sold in 2009, the last year figures are available (and that figure was only released because it was the subject of a FOI request to the Telegraph).
The early development of the petrol car was driven by people's desire for personal transport.
We have a very convenient form of personal transport already available to us, all of them more efficient at moving us about where and when we want than the electric car. I'll wager there is very little demand for something worse in most respects, and I'd wager that many people who think they might buy one, would want to see someone else and hear their experiences before they committed that amount of money.
Also, early motorists would also carry spare cans of petrol along with them in case they ran out of fuel - the garage trade grew up to service their needs as more and more cars were seen on the roads. Crucially though, running out of fuel was not an issue as you always carried some spare. Not the case with electric.
The proliferation of the petrol car drove the infrastructure - with so few electric cars on the roads, legislation will have to drive the infrastructure (as it has done with windmills for energy) since the returns are not there otherwise.
Would you really spend £23k on a car that was incapable of doing more than an optimum 140miles? What about when the batteries degraded (like they do in every other rechargeable device) and needed renewing at a cost of £4k, giving you a range of 90 miles, 80, 70....?
The early development of the petrol car was driven by people's desire for personal transport.
We have a very convenient form of personal transport already available to us, all of them more efficient at moving us about where and when we want than the electric car. I'll wager there is very little demand for something worse in most respects, and I'd wager that many people who think they might buy one, would want to see someone else and hear their experiences before they committed that amount of money.
Also, early motorists would also carry spare cans of petrol along with them in case they ran out of fuel - the garage trade grew up to service their needs as more and more cars were seen on the roads. Crucially though, running out of fuel was not an issue as you always carried some spare. Not the case with electric.
The proliferation of the petrol car drove the infrastructure - with so few electric cars on the roads, legislation will have to drive the infrastructure (as it has done with windmills for energy) since the returns are not there otherwise.
Would you really spend £23k on a car that was incapable of doing more than an optimum 140miles? What about when the batteries degraded (like they do in every other rechargeable device) and needed renewing at a cost of £4k, giving you a range of 90 miles, 80, 70....?
Look at the rise of diesel power in passenger cars. 25 years ago they were an incredibly rare sight on our roads but they've become more popular because they offer a cheaper alternative. No-one buys a diesel because it's nicer to drive than a petrol (they'll blather on about torque, but the "it does 50mpg" comment always follows). Electric power is another source, which is cheaper still.
You've highlighted the parallels quite nicely there. For garages, read charging points - see my comment above about another 1,300 planned in London alone.
People have access to sat nav and google maps, so will have a pretty good idea before they set out whether the electric car is viable, or whether to take their petrol/diesel instead.
Early motoring was the preserve of the rich, the same will go for electric power - 2nd cars etc, but electric cars will get cheaper and the savings will become significant I think.
As for running out of fuel, I read this morning that the AA has seen a 40% rise in call outs for people who've run out of fuel, mostly because they can't afford to fill up, so it affects everyone.
Would I buy one at £23k, no. I like my S2000 too much. Could I live with one? Yes. I rarely drive more than 70 miles in one go, and usually less than 20. In fact, my only significant mileage comes from mucking about ding the Ricky Run or trackdays.
As the thread title suggests, the electric car will be a part of the future, alongside petrol, diesel, lpg and perhaps hydrogen.
Former Moderator
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 24,771
Likes: 311
From: Stanmore
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,979
Likes: 0
From: North Yorks
Originally Posted by lovegroova,Feb 15 2011, 07:02 PM
1) Look at the rise of diesel power in passenger cars. 25 years ago they were an incredibly rare sight on our roads but they've become more popular because they offer a cheaper alternative. No-one buys a diesel because it's nicer to drive than a petrol (they'll blather on about torque, but the "it does 50mpg" comment always follows).
2)Electric power is another source, which is cheaper still.
3) You've highlighted the parallels quite nicely there. For garages, read charging points - see my comment above about another 1,300 planned in London alone.
4) People have access to sat nav and google maps, so will have a pretty good idea before they set out whether the electric car is viable, or whether to take their petrol/diesel instead.
5) Early motoring was the preserve of the rich, the same will go for electric power - 2nd cars etc, but electric cars will get cheaper and the savings will become significant I think.
6) As for running out of fuel, I read this morning that the AA has seen a 40% rise in call outs for people who've run out of fuel, mostly because they can't afford to fill up, so it affects everyone.
7) Would I buy one at £23k, no. I like my S2000 too much. Could I live with one? Yes. I rarely drive more than 70 miles in one go, and usually less than 20. In fact, my only significant mileage comes from mucking about ding the Ricky Run or trackdays.
8) As the thread title suggests, the electric car will be a part of the future, alongside petrol, diesel, lpg and perhaps hydrogen.
2)Electric power is another source, which is cheaper still.
3) You've highlighted the parallels quite nicely there. For garages, read charging points - see my comment above about another 1,300 planned in London alone.
4) People have access to sat nav and google maps, so will have a pretty good idea before they set out whether the electric car is viable, or whether to take their petrol/diesel instead.
5) Early motoring was the preserve of the rich, the same will go for electric power - 2nd cars etc, but electric cars will get cheaper and the savings will become significant I think.
6) As for running out of fuel, I read this morning that the AA has seen a 40% rise in call outs for people who've run out of fuel, mostly because they can't afford to fill up, so it affects everyone.
7) Would I buy one at £23k, no. I like my S2000 too much. Could I live with one? Yes. I rarely drive more than 70 miles in one go, and usually less than 20. In fact, my only significant mileage comes from mucking about ding the Ricky Run or trackdays.
8) As the thread title suggests, the electric car will be a part of the future, alongside petrol, diesel, lpg and perhaps hydrogen.
2) As with diesel, not when you factor in the increased purchase cost and unlike diesel, you'll need a second car in most cases.
3) As I said above, it's not in response to demand from consumers, it's a government stimulus to encourage the sale of electric cars. There have already been complaints in Sunderland due to the loss of car parking spaces to charging points for cars that don't exist. And that 1300 in London was supposed to be 7500 but the number was cut.
4) And if the journey is borderline, or you're not sure if the journey won't be longer, you'll want to take a detour, perhaps your batteries are running a lower capacity so you're not quite sure if the car will make it..... You'll take the diesel/petrol, just in case.
5) There will be a few with middle class guilt who'll buy them, but it's not a revolution in transport the way the early car was, there won't be mass take up for the reasons I've already stated,
6) Apropos of what? People being miserly with fuel is different to a car whose capacity is limited.
7) You could live with one, but you wouldn't buy one. My point exactly, you'll only buy one if you're forced to and there's no alternative. My belief is that there will be an alternative and it won't have batteries. We have decades to come up with it in any case.
8) They'll be museum pieces by 2030.
Banned
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 31,739
Likes: 69
From: Survivalist enclave
Originally Posted by lovegroova,Feb 15 2011, 07:02 PM
And how many major manufacturers were producing electric cars in 2009? A spurious statistic that one.
Look at the rise of diesel power in passenger cars. 25 years ago they were an incredibly rare sight on our roads but they've become more popular because they offer a cheaper alternative. No-one buys a diesel because it's nicer to drive than a petrol (they'll blather on about torque, but the "it does 50mpg" comment always follows). Electric power is another source, which is cheaper still.
You've highlighted the parallels quite nicely there. For garages, read charging points - see my comment above about another 1,300 planned in London alone.
People have access to sat nav and google maps, so will have a pretty good idea before they set out whether the electric car is viable, or whether to take their petrol/diesel instead.
Early motoring was the preserve of the rich, the same will go for electric power - 2nd cars etc, but electric cars will get cheaper and the savings will become significant I think.
As for running out of fuel, I read this morning that the AA has seen a 40% rise in call outs for people who've run out of fuel, mostly because they can't afford to fill up, so it affects everyone.
Would I buy one at £23k, no. I like my S2000 too much. Could I live with one? Yes. I rarely drive more than 70 miles in one go, and usually less than 20. In fact, my only significant mileage comes from mucking about ding the Ricky Run or trackdays.
As the thread title suggests, the electric car will be a part of the future, alongside petrol, diesel, lpg and perhaps hydrogen.
Look at the rise of diesel power in passenger cars. 25 years ago they were an incredibly rare sight on our roads but they've become more popular because they offer a cheaper alternative. No-one buys a diesel because it's nicer to drive than a petrol (they'll blather on about torque, but the "it does 50mpg" comment always follows). Electric power is another source, which is cheaper still.
You've highlighted the parallels quite nicely there. For garages, read charging points - see my comment above about another 1,300 planned in London alone.
People have access to sat nav and google maps, so will have a pretty good idea before they set out whether the electric car is viable, or whether to take their petrol/diesel instead.
Early motoring was the preserve of the rich, the same will go for electric power - 2nd cars etc, but electric cars will get cheaper and the savings will become significant I think.
As for running out of fuel, I read this morning that the AA has seen a 40% rise in call outs for people who've run out of fuel, mostly because they can't afford to fill up, so it affects everyone.
Would I buy one at £23k, no. I like my S2000 too much. Could I live with one? Yes. I rarely drive more than 70 miles in one go, and usually less than 20. In fact, my only significant mileage comes from mucking about ding the Ricky Run or trackdays.
As the thread title suggests, the electric car will be a part of the future, alongside petrol, diesel, lpg and perhaps hydrogen.
but what are those people to do who are running out of fuel because they can't afford to fill up?
buy a £23K electric car?
Banned
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 31,739
Likes: 69
From: Survivalist enclave
Originally Posted by MarkB,Feb 15 2011, 07:30 PM
5) There will be a few with middle class guilt who'll buy them, but it's not a revolution in transport the way the early car was, there won't be mass take up for the reasons I've already stated,
8) They'll be museum pieces by 2030.
they will never be the most-used form of personal road transport in the lifetime of anyone currently posting on this forum
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,713
Likes: 1
From: SW London
I much prefer the idea that my future car when I'm old and grey will be hydrogen fuel cell rather than battery. H cars still have very obvious problems not least that industrial hydrogen production methods create CO2 at some point.
What would you rather have a performance battery / fuel cell car or some nasty little eco petrol 3 cylinder. My sister has just bought the worse car available at this time, a Nissan Pixo.
What would you rather have a performance battery / fuel cell car or some nasty little eco petrol 3 cylinder. My sister has just bought the worse car available at this time, a Nissan Pixo.
Banned
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 31,739
Likes: 69
From: Survivalist enclave
Originally Posted by NineBolts,Feb 15 2011, 07:48 PM
I much prefer the idea that my future car when I'm old and grey will be hydrogen fuel cell rather than battery. H cars still have very obvious problems not least that industrial hydrogen production methods create CO2 at some point.
What would you rather have a performance battery / fuel cell car or some nasty little eco petrol 3 cylinder. My sister has just bought the worse car available at this time, a Nissan Pixo.
What would you rather have a performance battery / fuel cell car or some nasty little eco petrol 3 cylinder. My sister has just bought the worse car available at this time, a Nissan Pixo.
at the moment it's the £23K milk float or the £12K(?) roller skate
I think there are few safety issues to sort out with hydrogen powered cars
Former Moderator
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 24,771
Likes: 311
From: Stanmore
Originally Posted by gaddafi,Feb 15 2011, 07:34 PM
not aimed at you
but what are those people to do who are running out of fuel because they can't afford to fill up?
buy a £23K electric car?
they will never be the most-used form of personal road transport in the lifetime of anyone currently posting on this forum
but what are those people to do who are running out of fuel because they can't afford to fill up?
buy a £23K electric car?
they will never be the most-used form of personal road transport in the lifetime of anyone currently posting on this forum
An electric car won't cost £23k forever, and the price of fuel will keep rising.
At some point, the lines of purchase price/running costs will cross as they were with diesels (given certain conditions of mileage/road tax, income tax/BIK etc etc)
No-one (well, me certainly) has said electric cars will dominate the market, but they will form a significant market share in certain places, most notably highly urbanised areas.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,714
Likes: 1
From: coventry, UK
Originally Posted by lovegroova,Feb 15 2011, 08:07 PM
An electric car won't cost £23k forever, and the price of fuel will keep rising.
true point - already a few threads on hear moaning about fuel costs 
i wonder if they've posted in here? (i cant remember names)
i saw a few responses above; boring future. why? already the tesla thats got 0-60 of any performance sports car. ok, it might not have the range or top speed, but aside from a few locations, where can you use 120mph+?
as already said; electric probably wont be the fuel of the future due to various drawbacks.
fuelcell could well be a replacement even though it is probably a decade away from being affordable to the masses. i haven't seen any horror stories from the FCX yet...
ps, i don't buy into global warming and have pretty much the same views as gad, but surely non-polluting transport is the way forward? hell, it's not even pollution, depending how you look it at, it's either better performance (more torque/power according to Polemicist) or long term savings vs petrol/diesel.