Hi All,

My dad sent me this article from the August issue of Car and Driver mag. I thought it was super-interesting and I wanted to share (if y'all hadn't read it already!).

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/king/media/

$56 grand. Hmmm. I'll keep dreaming about this one.....

 

Seems like your not getting much more for your money. 15 HP and 4 lb/ft of torque for $14,000????

I'll keep my money.

 

Seems like Honda had already squeezed out most of the hp out of the F20C. 120 Hp per liter is pretty good for a PRODUCTION CAR engine. If you want more Hp, you might need to spend a lot of money per Hp. Unless you increase the displacement (much easier to start with a larger motor (see Ferrari 360), but that will add more weight and ruin the balance of the car.

I think 240Hp is plenty to be use on the street (Remember, there are other SLOWER cars out there! Drive safe). May be just reduce some extra unwanted weight? If I had the money for a second S2000 (probably an used one to be use on the track) First thing it will go is the top, and I'll strip all the carpet and panels. That alone will save about 50-100lbs! There are also other ways to reduce weight from the rotor and the calipers (probably 20lbs per corner). Too bad Honda's trying to keep the cost down by not using a lot of aluminium or CF. If they kept the 50/50 balance and 240 Hp but reduce the weight to around 2200 lbs. or less. That will be a Super car! Because Less weight, less torque required to move the car from standing still. That's why motorcycles has lower # torque but lots Hp to go from 0-60 so quick!

 

When is someone going to make a front bumper that looks like our stock bumper except with a direct air intake like the one on the SS2200? I think that would resolve the CAI issue once and for all. You can "pipe" cold air right into the existing box.

 

Kind of unfair how the article made it seem that all the extra money was for HP gain. Roof, springs, braces add no HP, but increase handling and looks. (OK so the top weighs less, I don't think that is the selling point of the top!!!)

Still for the bucks, I don't see it. Kingmotor sports is marketing after the Xcross driver, not the majority of Stook owners. There really is not enough of us to segment the group, thus the high prices.

When Honda commits to a larger production run, we will see more products, for less money (law of supply and demand).

The real issue at hand, will be how they compensate us S2000 owners that purchased a "collector's car", that turned into a production car. Every car they build after 2001 reduces the value of our cars. (This should be it's own thread! Sorry for deviating!) I feel that people are afraid to talk about this, becuase it causes friction! Anyone have any thoughts they want to share?

Todd

 

Todd,

From the start, S2000 always had been a "Limited" PRODUCTION car. The "Limited" production was planned at 12,000 units per year, originally offered at 5,000 units to the US and other 7,000 to the rest of the world. Since it was selling so good here at US, Honda decided to bring in more units. Honda never claimed to be limited collectible cars. Your DEALERS did! They lied! (Kind of like when Miata first came out!)

Let a lone on the 1999 (Japanese and European models) and 2000 US model there are more than 10,000 units built. In the last 2 years run, there are already over 10,000 units made it to the US. It was never meant to be a LIMITED CAR! Honda will never make their money back if they stopped the production in 2 years! (Mostly for the cost of R&D, This is brand new engine configuration- As Honda motor had always sprung counterclockwise (I could be wrong, but most did). The F20C rotates just like (most) engine build for the rest of the world at clockwise rotation. And the new design is now made it to the Acura RSX).

High RPM was nothing new to Honda. The old Honda S360, S500, S600, and S800 already were set to redline at around 8000 RPM, and this was back in the 60's (I heard that they could actually run up close to 10,000 RPM? I guess they didn't have a Rev limiter back then?). Honda "Limited" S2000 at around 12,000 per year was because the cars are mostly hand assembled and spot-weld by technician (some welding are still handled by robots, sheet metal are still stamped by machines). And this takes time, just like the good old days when they build the cars by hand on the assembly line. Time of the assembly was the factor, plus these cars are building at the same (small) plant where they built the NSX and the Insight. (3 of the high quality car, but yet they still had problems!)

Okay, look at the NSX. Since the first one arrived to the US shore back in 1991; there was a record (on the internet) shown from 1991 through 1998 the NSX's made to the US is somewhere around 8,000 units; and I know they made less than 500 per year since 1997. So, the total figures of NSX made it to the US are less than 10,000! Compare with our OVER 10,000 units that are already here within 2 years!

I really don't think that you will make money from this car, unless you are lucky (like me, but my back is still hurting!) or something? Look at the NSX! It is very limited compare with the S2000, but you can still buy one (earlier models) at around $30,000! It was around $60,000 when it was new. And $30,000 now a day weighs less than $30,000 10 years ago.

But the S2000 is STILL a very special car! It WAS the car to celebrate the 50 years anniversary of HONDA! (I think the S360 were the first model "car" Honda ever built? don't quote me on that.) S2000 is not the first convertible! Just look at the all the S (S360, S500, S600, and S800) also the Japanese and European model of "BEAT"; it was a cute (and cool) looking mid-engine convertible that never made it to the US! S2000 IS still a "Limited" production car. As for S2000 being a collectible car? It still can be. Just look at the VW Beetles! They sold tons of that car years ago (I used to have 13 of them at one time) and still consider to be collectable, they even made new ones now because they were so popular! (But not the same though, I love the older ones!) Some of the older Bugs are sold at over $17,000 now, and they were very cheap in the late 1940's! (First TWO came in 1948). Anyway, most cars lose its value as soon as it rolled off the dealer's floor. (Unless is a F1 McLaren LIMITED AT ONLY 100 UNITS). Most cars depreciate; buy a house or good properties if you want to appreciate the value. S2000 is a car for me to enjoy to be DRIVEN all the time (But don't drive too hard in the rain!). Don't buy it over MSRP! Unless you are willing to pay for it, or have the money to burn. I knew several people had bought it around or over $45,000 on the 1st year run!

Sorry guys! I guess I'm running my mouth again off on the wrong topic!

 

The Dealer is an "Agent" for Honda, and when they say something, it is the same as Honda saying it. When lawsuits are introduced, the lawyers go for the parties with the "deepest pockets". I know that I am not the only one that had a Dealer tell me that 2001 would be the last year of production. That the S"2000" was an anniversary car (for the year 2000), intended to make a statement as to were Honda stood in its engineering prowess. The intent was NOT to make money, but to build on it's Racing Reputation, and make a few Honda enthusists happy, and build Honda loyalty. These are quotes from a Honda agent (my Honda sales rep.) It was a celebration of being. My company just celebrated it's 20 year, and spent at least a million dollars on the event. They did not make one penny from the week long event. Celebrations are not intended to MAKE MONEY! Someone at Honda realized that they were making money, and decided that they should continue making the car.

Handmade assembly lines are they way that you do something when you do not want to invest tons of money into automation that will not make a profit.

The information that you have stated is the propaganda that they are now spreading to reduce the backlash from going back on there original plan. BMW just settled a class action lawsuit for the same issue with the Z3.

Having a limited "collector's car" would reduce the rate of depreciation on the car, and in some cases increase the value. Why do I make this statement. Before I bought my car, I cruised the internet looking for used ones. I found one in California for sale at $65,000. He was definitely advertising the "collector's car" sales pitch in his ad.

Dealerships where able to get prices over MSRP, because of the sales pitch. For the poor souls that bought at this price, they have taken a bath. And if I were one of them, I would already filed a "Misreprensation" lawsuit againts the Dealership and Honda. Until I saw the 2002 model color chart, there was still a chance that Honda was going to "Honor" the claim made by their agents. Now I am wondering who will file first? Someone will file, I'll bet you my STOOK on that. It is just a matter of time!

 

I would definitely try to get in on that lawsuit. I bought a used stook because of how hard it was to find news ones at the time and the sales pitch that they would only get harder to find because of the "limited" production run. I think the street goes both ways...if Honda and it's dealers can use the Honda reputation and the promise of exclusivity to hype up a car than we should be able to expect a little extra back from it.

 

Good luck! guys
Like I said before, Honda didn't raise the price! or changed anything! The DEALERS did. I have study this car since 1995, and none of the dealer knew what I was talking about when I want to put a deposite on the car in 1997! May be Honda wants to celebrate as long as they can make money?
Anyway, when S2000 first came out in late 1999. Most dealer around here were asking around $40,000 range; even when I had the deposite back in 1998 and 1st on the list. They told me the same thing. "This is a collectible car, celebrate Honda 50 year anniversary"! I didn't believe that CRAP! I knew Honda will make run for at least 4 years or more before they'll make any changes. So, I had complaint to the Honda Customer service back in 1999 (also about the rear plastic window, even wrote to Honda Japan), but no dice! They said Honda set a reasonable MSRP at $32,000 (which I think was pretty fair, for a car probably build worth around $22000 (this is only my estiimate, remember the engine is around $11,000 Retail) - parts and labor of course. Honda has to make some money too, you know.) Honda sell it to the dealers at around $27,850 (Invoice).and what ever dealer want to sell it is all up to the DEALERS (So, I ask Honda to sell it directely to me, but they can only sell it to dealers). Honda does not have control over it (it's the stupid law to protect the dealers), because the cars are already belong to the dealers! By knowing the dealers are only paying at $27,000 something, I'm not about to pay $40,000 something to let the dealers to make that much money for nothing (I rather pay the engineers that designed the S2000 for the extra money)
So, that is why I got my deposite back and never ordered from the local dealers here in late 1999. I love the car so much, I search on the internet for over 6 month. Finally found someone will sell the car to me at MSRP in May 2000 out of state and put a deposite on it for MY2001. Also able to choose the color that I wanted too; I remember when I had the deposite back in 1998 here at local dealer, they won't even let me choose the color. They said what ever they can get will be the color that I'll get. So, the dealer that sold the car to me still makes about something over $2300 on the S2000 and probably gets a factory rebate or something like that?
Will, now my baby yellow is gone. I'm signing up for another one with glass window of course (hopefully at MSRP, probably another $200-$300 more than last year? Cross my fingers). May be my letter finally worked after a year and half.
Just drive! And enjoy the car! Did you bought the car to have fun? Well, you pay for it! Don't think too much about why! Be cool! It is still a very special car to make you stand out!

 

My ignorance about the "2000" comes from what I was told my my Honda agent.
You helped me prove my point even more.

I Love my car, and I think Honda is a great company! But they are responsible for disseminating product knowledge to their reps. And equally responsible for correcting them, when they are misinforming the public.

I am not a head hunter. I have not filed a suit. If Honda was smart though, they would be taking proactive steps towards solving the issue before it gets to court. They will lose if this goes to court. As a matter of fact, if this does get filed, they will settle before going to court.

Remember, I started this discussion with "I wonder what Honda is going to do?" Not, "Let' sue Honda!" I think that is being pretty cool, don't you!

Joey O, If you are reading this, please feel free to chime in.