Interesting find....dare to break belief and rules
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Interesting find....dare to break belief and rules
Hi guys.
I've been experimenting with something for a few weeks now, and the results were consistent enough, that I believe my theory is correct.
Throughout the years, all of us have been reading tons and tons of info on how to wire a stereo system. Power wire on the left, speaker on the right, and RCAs down the middle. Many people say "its a bad ground" or move the RCAs away from the power wire. However, with my latest experiments, I would like to prove this all to be a car audio myth.....call me the S2ki electronics section mythbuster.
I myself have wired my car in a way that the power runs down the passenger side sill, and the RCAs are run down the drivers side sill. However, my first system, no matter how hard I tried, would still have a whine. Why? Because I was using crappy RCAs.
Anyway, maybe people like Phil, or Dan can prove me otherwise, but as far as I understand, there is no point of running your power wire and RCAs separately. Even if you separate them down the length of the car, all the way to the trunk, they are still near each other when they are near the amp....so electronically speaking, whats the point? The amp/headunit doesn't care at what point did the interference come in, its interference, and thats all there is to it. So, with that said, on to my experiment.
I used my friend's stripped 944 Turbo to test this. We installed an Alpine headunit, 2 good amps, and speakers. Now, on to the experiment.
Scenario 1.
Rcas run drivers side. (cheapest black RCAs from radioshack)
Power run pass. side.
Car on, music on, whine detected.
Scenario 2.
Rcas run parallel to the power (touching each other)
Car on, music on, whine increased noticeably.
Scenario 3.
Rcas run drivers side. (Rockford Fosgate braided interconnects)
Power run pass. side.
Car on, music on, whine detected.
Scenario 4
Rcas run parallel to power (touching)
Car on, music on, whine remained the same.
Scenario 5
Top level RCAs (Knukonceptz of the line RCAs)
<Phoenix Gold has these as well, although much more $>
run down the drivers side sill
Power run through passenger side sill.
Car on, music on, no whine.
Scenario 6.
Rcas and power BRAIDED together
Car on music on, no whine.
Live 110 volt wire pointed at a boombox yielded major distortion. THe same wire a mm away from the RCAs didn't do anything.
All of the above scenarios were done with a good and a bad ground, with no change in results.
So in my findings, no matter what you do, its the RCAs and ONLY the RCAs that matter. There is nothing you can do to get rid of whine without a good pair of RCAs. Good RCAs however, are almost immune to electrical interference. Now, not all of these RCAs are equal. The Rockford RCAs said triple shielded and yadda yadda copper plated, yadda yadda, but they were about as thick as a shoelace. The Knukonceptz RCA was about 4 gauge thick, and really did have about 5 layers of shielding in it.
Now, I know what you are thinking, does this guy work for Knukonceptz or what? No I don't, I am not even telling you to buy their product, I am just stating make sure you get the best RCAs available, so you can get the most out of your system.
So, if anyone has a question, or has a hole in my theory, write em!
_-Dave
I've been experimenting with something for a few weeks now, and the results were consistent enough, that I believe my theory is correct.
Throughout the years, all of us have been reading tons and tons of info on how to wire a stereo system. Power wire on the left, speaker on the right, and RCAs down the middle. Many people say "its a bad ground" or move the RCAs away from the power wire. However, with my latest experiments, I would like to prove this all to be a car audio myth.....call me the S2ki electronics section mythbuster.
I myself have wired my car in a way that the power runs down the passenger side sill, and the RCAs are run down the drivers side sill. However, my first system, no matter how hard I tried, would still have a whine. Why? Because I was using crappy RCAs.
Anyway, maybe people like Phil, or Dan can prove me otherwise, but as far as I understand, there is no point of running your power wire and RCAs separately. Even if you separate them down the length of the car, all the way to the trunk, they are still near each other when they are near the amp....so electronically speaking, whats the point? The amp/headunit doesn't care at what point did the interference come in, its interference, and thats all there is to it. So, with that said, on to my experiment.
I used my friend's stripped 944 Turbo to test this. We installed an Alpine headunit, 2 good amps, and speakers. Now, on to the experiment.
Scenario 1.
Rcas run drivers side. (cheapest black RCAs from radioshack)
Power run pass. side.
Car on, music on, whine detected.
Scenario 2.
Rcas run parallel to the power (touching each other)
Car on, music on, whine increased noticeably.
Scenario 3.
Rcas run drivers side. (Rockford Fosgate braided interconnects)
Power run pass. side.
Car on, music on, whine detected.
Scenario 4
Rcas run parallel to power (touching)
Car on, music on, whine remained the same.
Scenario 5
Top level RCAs (Knukonceptz of the line RCAs)
<Phoenix Gold has these as well, although much more $>
run down the drivers side sill
Power run through passenger side sill.
Car on, music on, no whine.
Scenario 6.
Rcas and power BRAIDED together
Car on music on, no whine.
Live 110 volt wire pointed at a boombox yielded major distortion. THe same wire a mm away from the RCAs didn't do anything.
All of the above scenarios were done with a good and a bad ground, with no change in results.
So in my findings, no matter what you do, its the RCAs and ONLY the RCAs that matter. There is nothing you can do to get rid of whine without a good pair of RCAs. Good RCAs however, are almost immune to electrical interference. Now, not all of these RCAs are equal. The Rockford RCAs said triple shielded and yadda yadda copper plated, yadda yadda, but they were about as thick as a shoelace. The Knukonceptz RCA was about 4 gauge thick, and really did have about 5 layers of shielding in it.
Now, I know what you are thinking, does this guy work for Knukonceptz or what? No I don't, I am not even telling you to buy their product, I am just stating make sure you get the best RCAs available, so you can get the most out of your system.
So, if anyone has a question, or has a hole in my theory, write em!
_-Dave
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
From: Pensacola, Florida
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC,Oct 26 2004, 12:37 PM
Hi guys.
I've been experimenting with something for a few weeks now......
I've been experimenting with something for a few weeks now......
is there some kind of flexible sheet which one can insert between the rca and power at the amp end?
i forgot to mention that my whine seems to switch on and off but I can not make sense of when or what is the culprit - its not the ac - it seems to do so on whims not when the car is cold or newly started - stc. its very evident however on cold start until I get going - maybe there are two culprits
i read somehwere that the hu should be grounded back where the amp is - any thoughts
how much does the best RCAs cost - a question I dreaded because I seem to remember - somewhere that they can cost >1,000
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Miami
Nice experiment,
Its reassuring, I just ordered those Krystal Kable Rca's from KNU yesterday. I figured if I spent so much money on nice Components and Nice amps, why skimp on the interconnects. I always wondered about you mentioned, that even though you run the wires separate on the sides of the car, there is a point where they come close when going into the amp. I got these RCA's for $15 a set for 4 meters. Plenty enough for our cars. Thanks for the write up NFR.
Its reassuring, I just ordered those Krystal Kable Rca's from KNU yesterday. I figured if I spent so much money on nice Components and Nice amps, why skimp on the interconnects. I always wondered about you mentioned, that even though you run the wires separate on the sides of the car, there is a point where they come close when going into the amp. I got these RCA's for $15 a set for 4 meters. Plenty enough for our cars. Thanks for the write up NFR.
Thread Starter
Former Moderator
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: New York
Originally Posted by J Nick,Oct 26 2004, 01:19 PM
ok dandy - food for thought for sure - the ultimate proximity bothered me - touching at the amp....
is there some kind of flexible sheet which one can insert between the rca and power at the amp end?
i forgot to mention that my whine seems to switch on and off but I can not make sense of when or what is the culprit - its not the ac - it seems to do so on whims not when the car is cold or newly started - stc. its very evident however on cold start until I get going - maybe there are two culprits
i read somehwere that the hu should be grounded back where the amp is - any thoughts
how much does the best RCAs cost - a question I dreaded because I seem to remember - somewhere that they can cost >1,000
is there some kind of flexible sheet which one can insert between the rca and power at the amp end?
i forgot to mention that my whine seems to switch on and off but I can not make sense of when or what is the culprit - its not the ac - it seems to do so on whims not when the car is cold or newly started - stc. its very evident however on cold start until I get going - maybe there are two culprits
i read somehwere that the hu should be grounded back where the amp is - any thoughts
how much does the best RCAs cost - a question I dreaded because I seem to remember - somewhere that they can cost >1,000
Also, when the car is cold, the motor idles at 2000rpm. Thus the higher whine in regard to warm (idle at 750rpm)
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
From: Pensacola, Florida
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC,Oct 26 2004, 12:37 PM
Hi guys.
I've been experimenting with something for a few weeks now, and the results were consistent enough, that I believe my theory is correct.
Throughout the years, all of us have been reading tons and tons of info on how to wire a stereo system. Power wire on the left, speaker on the right, and RCAs down the middle. Many people say "its a bad ground" or move the RCAs away from the power wire. However, with my latest experiments, I would like to prove this all to be a car audio myth.....call me the S2ki electronics section mythbuster.
I myself have wired my car in a way that the power runs down the passenger side sill, and the RCAs are run down the drivers side sill. However, my first system, no matter how hard I tried, would still have a whine. Why? Because I was using crappy RCAs.
Anyway, maybe people like Phil, or Dan can prove me otherwise, but as far as I understand, there is no point of running your power wire and RCAs separately. Even if you separate them down the length of the car, all the way to the trunk, they are still near each other when they are near the amp....so electronically speaking, whats the point? The amp/headunit doesn't care at what point did the interference come in, its interference, and thats all there is to it. So, with that said, on to my experiment.
I used my friend's stripped 944 Turbo to test this. We installed an Alpine headunit, 2 good amps, and speakers. Now, on to the experiment.
Scenario 1.
Rcas run drivers side. (cheapest black RCAs from radioshack)
Power run pass. side.
Car on, music on, whine detected.
Scenario 2.
Rcas run parallel to the power (touching each other)
Car on, music on, whine increased noticeably.
Scenario 3.
Rcas run drivers side. (Rockford Fosgate braided interconnects)
Power run pass. side.
Car on, music on, whine detected.
Scenario 4
Rcas run parallel to power (touching)
Car on, music on, whine remained the same.
Scenario 5
Top level RCAs (Knukonceptz of the line RCAs)
<Phoenix Gold has these as well, although much more $>
run down the drivers side sill
Power run through passenger side sill.
Car on, music on, no whine.
Scenario 6.
Rcas and power BRAIDED together
Car on music on, no whine.
Live 110 volt wire pointed at a boombox yielded major distortion. THe same wire a mm away from the RCAs didn't do anything.
All of the above scenarios were done with a good and a bad ground, with no change in results.
So in my findings, no matter what you do, its the RCAs and ONLY the RCAs that matter. There is nothing you can do to get rid of whine without a good pair of RCAs. Good RCAs however, are almost immune to electrical interference. Now, not all of these RCAs are equal. The Rockford RCAs said triple shielded and yadda yadda copper plated, yadda yadda, but they were about as thick as a shoelace. The Knukonceptz RCA was about 4 gauge thick, and really did have about 5 layers of shielding in it.
Now, I know what you are thinking, does this guy work for Knukonceptz or what? No I don't, I am not even telling you to buy their product, I am just stating make sure you get the best RCAs available, so you can get the most out of your system.
So, if anyone has a question, or has a hole in my theory, write em!
_-Dave
I've been experimenting with something for a few weeks now, and the results were consistent enough, that I believe my theory is correct.
Throughout the years, all of us have been reading tons and tons of info on how to wire a stereo system. Power wire on the left, speaker on the right, and RCAs down the middle. Many people say "its a bad ground" or move the RCAs away from the power wire. However, with my latest experiments, I would like to prove this all to be a car audio myth.....call me the S2ki electronics section mythbuster.
I myself have wired my car in a way that the power runs down the passenger side sill, and the RCAs are run down the drivers side sill. However, my first system, no matter how hard I tried, would still have a whine. Why? Because I was using crappy RCAs.
Anyway, maybe people like Phil, or Dan can prove me otherwise, but as far as I understand, there is no point of running your power wire and RCAs separately. Even if you separate them down the length of the car, all the way to the trunk, they are still near each other when they are near the amp....so electronically speaking, whats the point? The amp/headunit doesn't care at what point did the interference come in, its interference, and thats all there is to it. So, with that said, on to my experiment.
I used my friend's stripped 944 Turbo to test this. We installed an Alpine headunit, 2 good amps, and speakers. Now, on to the experiment.
Scenario 1.
Rcas run drivers side. (cheapest black RCAs from radioshack)
Power run pass. side.
Car on, music on, whine detected.
Scenario 2.
Rcas run parallel to the power (touching each other)
Car on, music on, whine increased noticeably.
Scenario 3.
Rcas run drivers side. (Rockford Fosgate braided interconnects)
Power run pass. side.
Car on, music on, whine detected.
Scenario 4
Rcas run parallel to power (touching)
Car on, music on, whine remained the same.
Scenario 5
Top level RCAs (Knukonceptz of the line RCAs)
<Phoenix Gold has these as well, although much more $>
run down the drivers side sill
Power run through passenger side sill.
Car on, music on, no whine.
Scenario 6.
Rcas and power BRAIDED together
Car on music on, no whine.
Live 110 volt wire pointed at a boombox yielded major distortion. THe same wire a mm away from the RCAs didn't do anything.
All of the above scenarios were done with a good and a bad ground, with no change in results.
So in my findings, no matter what you do, its the RCAs and ONLY the RCAs that matter. There is nothing you can do to get rid of whine without a good pair of RCAs. Good RCAs however, are almost immune to electrical interference. Now, not all of these RCAs are equal. The Rockford RCAs said triple shielded and yadda yadda copper plated, yadda yadda, but they were about as thick as a shoelace. The Knukonceptz RCA was about 4 gauge thick, and really did have about 5 layers of shielding in it.
Now, I know what you are thinking, does this guy work for Knukonceptz or what? No I don't, I am not even telling you to buy their product, I am just stating make sure you get the best RCAs available, so you can get the most out of your system.
So, if anyone has a question, or has a hole in my theory, write em!
_-Dave
StreetWires Zero Noise 3 Interconnects are some of the most advanced mobile audio cables in the world. Silver-plated, ultragrain, oxygen-free copper wires carry every detail of your music, while the Hyper Twist
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From: Vegas Baby, Vegas
It's all about the % of coverage from the shield. If you buy crappy cables, they skimp on everything, including the amount of shielding that keeps the unwanted signals (noise, whine) out of the signal path of the system. Better, more complete, shield coverage is usually directly proportional to the quality of the cable (but not always the price you pay 
). All this is meaningless without good grounds but you audio guys know that already.
). All this is meaningless without good grounds but you audio guys know that already.
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Former Moderator
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From: New York
[QUOTE=J Nick,Oct 26 2004, 01:57 PM] shouldn't my
StreetWires Zero Noise 3 Interconnects are some of the most advanced mobile audio cables in the world. Silver-plated, ultragrain, oxygen-free copper wires carry every detail of your music, while the Hyper Twist
StreetWires Zero Noise 3 Interconnects are some of the most advanced mobile audio cables in the world. Silver-plated, ultragrain, oxygen-free copper wires carry every detail of your music, while the Hyper Twist
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From: Vegas Baby, Vegas
Yep, I believe it.
The cables are simple coaxial cables, an inner solid conductor wrapped in dielectric (insulation, usually teflon based) and then an outer shield. The outer shield is a wire braid that flexes and like all braid has "space" between the weave. The bigger those spaces, the crappier the shiled coverage and hence the crappier the cable. Some cables may even have a second shield made of a foil like material to insure 100% coverage but this depends on many factors including how much flex is needed in the cable etc.
Good cables, good connectors, good grounds all work together. The shield on a cable essentially connects the chassis ground of the head unit to that of the amplifier to keep noise out. If your cable has "holes" in it, then sound will suffer. Anyway, yes, interconnects are important as you showed. Anything that can leak unwanted signals into the low-voltage (non-amplified) signal path is bad
The cables are simple coaxial cables, an inner solid conductor wrapped in dielectric (insulation, usually teflon based) and then an outer shield. The outer shield is a wire braid that flexes and like all braid has "space" between the weave. The bigger those spaces, the crappier the shiled coverage and hence the crappier the cable. Some cables may even have a second shield made of a foil like material to insure 100% coverage but this depends on many factors including how much flex is needed in the cable etc.
Good cables, good connectors, good grounds all work together. The shield on a cable essentially connects the chassis ground of the head unit to that of the amplifier to keep noise out. If your cable has "holes" in it, then sound will suffer. Anyway, yes, interconnects are important as you showed. Anything that can leak unwanted signals into the low-voltage (non-amplified) signal path is bad
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From: Vegas Baby, Vegas
Interconnects = patch cables.
You shouldn't have to provide separate shielding; the interconnects are already shielded cables but the point was that better cables do have benefits. Better not necessarily meaning more expensive or fancier marketing
You shouldn't have to provide separate shielding; the interconnects are already shielded cables but the point was that better cables do have benefits. Better not necessarily meaning more expensive or fancier marketing