Revalved KONI singles - report from A Stock
04-01-2007, 05:54 PM
#1
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Revalved KONI singles - report from A Stock
All -
There's been a lot of discussion here and elsewhere about KONI shocks for A Stock autocross use. When it came to light that I pulled the trigger on a revalved set for my car, there was some interest in a report back. So, here it is.
Disclaimer
I am not a supsension engineer. I am not all that good a chassis guy either. I'm the sort who looks around and finds what's working for other people, and I go with that. My level of experience is also very much weighted towards both track days and door to door racing, in Honda Challenge (Integra GS-R with revalved Konis), SCCA ITC (Civic with revalved Konis), and SCCA ITA (Miata with revalved Konis). So, I've driven a lot of cars with revalved Konis, and they've always worked well for me, so basically that's why I gave this a shot. Oh, I also don't happen to have the money for exotica like Motons.
Background
I should point out that while I used to autocross regularly, it's been a lot of years - probably six or seven. All of that in a DSP Integra GS-R that eventually became much more a track car. I'm certainly not a hack, but a top flight national autocrosser I am not.
Today's was my first autocross with the car "finished," with an alignment, the Konis, and 245/275 Hoosier A6s. I knew going in that the learning curve was going to be steep, and I'd need to do a lot of adjusting to learn the car. This turned out to be very true.
I've had people ask me what the "specs" are on these shocks and my answer is simply "I don't know." I know when I first started talking with the people at KONI, the starting point was to be the TC Kline double adjustables listed here. KONI told me they would build me a set of singles that mirrored the performance of these doubles.
I've also been asked for how I got them, and the answer is simply I contacted KONI, I happen to have a friend employed there. Any KONI dealer like ProParts should be able to valve a set of singles to whatever specifications you want, so really, I don't think availability is much of a concern.
Finally, pricing - I'm not at liberty to disclose that, as these are a "work in progress" as me and my occasional, hotshoe codriver develop the shocks over the course of the season.
This was, BTW, a mostly 2nd-gear, parking lot style course. There was one low speed turnaround and the rest was your standard lane changes, sweepers and slaloms. The course flowed *very* well and was a whole lot more fun than I expected on a small parking lot.
Impressions from the autocross
Not surprisingly, the car has grip that was, at first, completely impossible to believe. It transitions yesterday and turns in last week. The faster I went, the more I was amazed that "wow, the car will actually do that slalom flat out," those kinds of things. I was shaking a lot of rust off to be sure, but the car really impressed me.
I set the shocks at 1/2 turn from full soft in the rear, and 1 1/2 turns from full soft in the front. I'm a neophyte to tuning shocks on a RWD car. In my old Integra, the answer was always simple - run the rears as stiff as possible, and the fronts the opposite, to get the car to rotate. Thinking, perhaps incorrectly?, that softish rear shocks would help put power down more effectively. Seemed to work, and I didn't touch them for the rest of the day.
The lot is sealed asphalt and is popularly derided in the club for offering grip approximating that of glare ice. I found it to be not so bad - certainly better than the last time I was there in an STS2 CRX.
As I started to become acclimated to the level of grip the car had on tap, I got a better feel for the car. It is resolutely neutral. Coming out of the one low-speed turnaround, I downshifted to 1st gear and just planted it. The rear end stepped out maybe five degrees, requiring no countersteering whatsoever. The car just automatically tightened up its line coming out of that pivot and set itself up perfectly for the following (full throttle) three cone slalom.
One item in particular that I did notice regarding the shocks was their performance over a bump in the middle of the course. Done properly, this was right in the middle of a braking zone approaching said 1st-gear pivot, with considerable steering input dialed in to set up. The bump was right in the middle of this, and ordinarily, it would have been a nightmare. But when discussing the course with another driver, my honest reaction was, "there's a bump there? Where?" Had I not been told, and then later seen it while shagging cones, I'd have never known. No hicupps under braking, no anything. It just didn't exist.
I did find launching the car to be tricky, but I can't fault the shocks for that. The first time I did it, I was met with not much other than clutch slip. I quickly decided that 7K RPM launches on 275 Hoosiers maybe weren't such a bright idea.
There's really not a lot else to tell. Physics still apply. Too much gas coming out of a corner? The car will understeer. Too much gas too suddenly at high RPM? The rear end wants to swing around.
Impressions on the road
There really aren't any. Ride quality seems to me to be unaffected.
Some people seem to be fixated on how stiff a shock feels when compressing them off the car, with their hands. My own opinion is that taking the factory shock versus another and compressing them with your hands is not useful data. To start with, with the car sitting at its static ride height, the shocks don't begin their compression travel at that point in their stroke anyway. So who's to say that any difference in firmness between the two isn't due to stiction somewhere in the seals, that once partially compressed, becomes a non issue?
Shock dyno information
The short answer is, I don't have any, at least not at this time. The reason being, I don't care. See the thing above about me not being a suspension engineer. Over the course of the season, maybe I might be able to get a hold of some shock dyno information, but I'm not promising anything. It's something that doesn't concern me, and as far as I know Koni may want to keep that under wraps while Eric and I develop the valving.
Conclusion?
I hope that this helps. Cliffs Notes? I like them. A lot. I'd do it again, and I trust the guys at Koni, who for years now, have known a lot more about this stuff than I do.
My intention is to update this thread over the course of the season with changes and whatnot.
Appendix: my setup, for those interested
Not because I've cracked any particular code - just sharing this so people will know how it may or may not affect the way the car behaves, casting the shocks aside for the moment.
Hoosier A6s, 245-40-17 (F), 275-40-17
There's been a lot of discussion here and elsewhere about KONI shocks for A Stock autocross use. When it came to light that I pulled the trigger on a revalved set for my car, there was some interest in a report back. So, here it is.
Disclaimer
I am not a supsension engineer. I am not all that good a chassis guy either. I'm the sort who looks around and finds what's working for other people, and I go with that. My level of experience is also very much weighted towards both track days and door to door racing, in Honda Challenge (Integra GS-R with revalved Konis), SCCA ITC (Civic with revalved Konis), and SCCA ITA (Miata with revalved Konis). So, I've driven a lot of cars with revalved Konis, and they've always worked well for me, so basically that's why I gave this a shot. Oh, I also don't happen to have the money for exotica like Motons.
Background
I should point out that while I used to autocross regularly, it's been a lot of years - probably six or seven. All of that in a DSP Integra GS-R that eventually became much more a track car. I'm certainly not a hack, but a top flight national autocrosser I am not.
Today's was my first autocross with the car "finished," with an alignment, the Konis, and 245/275 Hoosier A6s. I knew going in that the learning curve was going to be steep, and I'd need to do a lot of adjusting to learn the car. This turned out to be very true.
I've had people ask me what the "specs" are on these shocks and my answer is simply "I don't know." I know when I first started talking with the people at KONI, the starting point was to be the TC Kline double adjustables listed here. KONI told me they would build me a set of singles that mirrored the performance of these doubles.
I've also been asked for how I got them, and the answer is simply I contacted KONI, I happen to have a friend employed there. Any KONI dealer like ProParts should be able to valve a set of singles to whatever specifications you want, so really, I don't think availability is much of a concern.
Finally, pricing - I'm not at liberty to disclose that, as these are a "work in progress" as me and my occasional, hotshoe codriver develop the shocks over the course of the season.
This was, BTW, a mostly 2nd-gear, parking lot style course. There was one low speed turnaround and the rest was your standard lane changes, sweepers and slaloms. The course flowed *very* well and was a whole lot more fun than I expected on a small parking lot.
Impressions from the autocross
Not surprisingly, the car has grip that was, at first, completely impossible to believe. It transitions yesterday and turns in last week. The faster I went, the more I was amazed that "wow, the car will actually do that slalom flat out," those kinds of things. I was shaking a lot of rust off to be sure, but the car really impressed me.
I set the shocks at 1/2 turn from full soft in the rear, and 1 1/2 turns from full soft in the front. I'm a neophyte to tuning shocks on a RWD car. In my old Integra, the answer was always simple - run the rears as stiff as possible, and the fronts the opposite, to get the car to rotate. Thinking, perhaps incorrectly?, that softish rear shocks would help put power down more effectively. Seemed to work, and I didn't touch them for the rest of the day.
The lot is sealed asphalt and is popularly derided in the club for offering grip approximating that of glare ice. I found it to be not so bad - certainly better than the last time I was there in an STS2 CRX.
As I started to become acclimated to the level of grip the car had on tap, I got a better feel for the car. It is resolutely neutral. Coming out of the one low-speed turnaround, I downshifted to 1st gear and just planted it. The rear end stepped out maybe five degrees, requiring no countersteering whatsoever. The car just automatically tightened up its line coming out of that pivot and set itself up perfectly for the following (full throttle) three cone slalom.
One item in particular that I did notice regarding the shocks was their performance over a bump in the middle of the course. Done properly, this was right in the middle of a braking zone approaching said 1st-gear pivot, with considerable steering input dialed in to set up. The bump was right in the middle of this, and ordinarily, it would have been a nightmare. But when discussing the course with another driver, my honest reaction was, "there's a bump there? Where?" Had I not been told, and then later seen it while shagging cones, I'd have never known. No hicupps under braking, no anything. It just didn't exist.
I did find launching the car to be tricky, but I can't fault the shocks for that. The first time I did it, I was met with not much other than clutch slip. I quickly decided that 7K RPM launches on 275 Hoosiers maybe weren't such a bright idea.
There's really not a lot else to tell. Physics still apply. Too much gas coming out of a corner? The car will understeer. Too much gas too suddenly at high RPM? The rear end wants to swing around.
Impressions on the road
There really aren't any. Ride quality seems to me to be unaffected.
Some people seem to be fixated on how stiff a shock feels when compressing them off the car, with their hands. My own opinion is that taking the factory shock versus another and compressing them with your hands is not useful data. To start with, with the car sitting at its static ride height, the shocks don't begin their compression travel at that point in their stroke anyway. So who's to say that any difference in firmness between the two isn't due to stiction somewhere in the seals, that once partially compressed, becomes a non issue?
Shock dyno information
The short answer is, I don't have any, at least not at this time. The reason being, I don't care. See the thing above about me not being a suspension engineer. Over the course of the season, maybe I might be able to get a hold of some shock dyno information, but I'm not promising anything. It's something that doesn't concern me, and as far as I know Koni may want to keep that under wraps while Eric and I develop the valving.
Conclusion?
I hope that this helps. Cliffs Notes? I like them. A lot. I'd do it again, and I trust the guys at Koni, who for years now, have known a lot more about this stuff than I do.
My intention is to update this thread over the course of the season with changes and whatnot.
Appendix: my setup, for those interested
Not because I've cracked any particular code - just sharing this so people will know how it may or may not affect the way the car behaves, casting the shocks aside for the moment.
Hoosier A6s, 245-40-17 (F), 275-40-17
04-01-2007, 07:05 PM
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sweet write up. looking forwards to updates. getting ready to try Hoosiers in 245/275 on 16" with Moton Club Sports - inherited them with the car.....
hope to have the same asphalt tearing experience
hope to have the same asphalt tearing experience
04-01-2007, 07:59 PM
#4
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Originally Posted by AlpineFD,Apr 1 2007, 06:49 PM
very nice, do you know what has been changed in the valving compare to a OTS yellow? Increased compression and increased rebound? Sharper "nose"? More digressive?
I do know that Koni told me the revalved shocks would have "a lot" more bump compression and rebound across their range, if that helps.
By "more digressive," what do you mean exactly? For my own education, as "not a suspension engineer..."
More to follow over the course of the year. As they say, "watch this space."
I'll edit my original post to include my Saner front bar, set at the middle position.
04-01-2007, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by krshultz,Apr 1 2007, 05:54 PM
Some people seem to be fixated on how stiff a shock feels when compressing them off the car, with their hands. My own opinion is that taking the factory shock versus another and compressing them with your hands is not useful data. To start with, with the car sitting at its static ride height, the shocks don't begin their compression travel at that point in their stroke anyway. So who's to say that any difference in firmness between the two isn't due to stiction somewhere in the seals, that once partially compressed, becomes a non issue?
Your writeup is nice and well written, but the characteristics you describe seem like the same that any driver would talk about when autocrossing an S2k on R-Comps for the first time. Its hard to imply any empirical data on how the revalved Konis affect the car because everything about the experience is new to you(even if you have experience behind the wheel as stated in your note its mainly at a track in a FWD car). By your own admission you dont have much knowledge on shock tuning, nor much feel in regards to how your shocks are working on the car. I dont mean to attempt to discredit your writeup, but I just find it hard to extract any meaningful data from the above, because its all based on feelings that you personally admit probably arent the best. All I can gather is you enjoyed autocrossing your car, which probably would have been true on the OE shocks.
Dont get me wrong, I am glad someone is trying out this option, I just hope you have some more quantifiable data in the future.
04-01-2007, 09:24 PM
#6
Registered User
^
i agree.
so what are we supposed to do now, we don't know anything about the re-valved koni's other than they are revalved and improve your handling...
does that mean OTS koni-yellow's won't do the same or better?
i agree.
so what are we supposed to do now, we don't know anything about the re-valved koni's other than they are revalved and improve your handling...
does that mean OTS koni-yellow's won't do the same or better?
04-02-2007, 07:38 AM
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I currently have OTS Koni Sports (Yellows) and was thinking that by 2008 I will need to consider revalving them or upgrading.
Hmm.... Here's another thread that is similar enough to at least reference.
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.ph...pic=344458&hl=
-Dave
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05-25-2007, 04:00 AM
#9
Any updates?
I just purchased a set of custom valved Konis through Lee @ Koni. They will be here around the 1st of July though so I hope to get as much info and reedback on the as possible.
I just purchased a set of custom valved Konis through Lee @ Koni. They will be here around the 1st of July though so I hope to get as much info and reedback on the as possible.
05-25-2007, 01:12 PM
#10
It's odd that it took 7 years for Koni to fully understand that their OTS yellows are not appropriate for stock class auto-x.
This is big news for the budget minded auto-xer.
Shultz, when you come to Atlanta for the Double-x I'd like to take a spin in your car on the practice day if you don't mind. I still have my S2000 and some auto-x specific konis would be awesome. I've owned the OTS shocks and Motons and I'd love to drive the difference if you don't mind.
This is big news for the budget minded auto-xer.
Shultz, when you come to Atlanta for the Double-x I'd like to take a spin in your car on the practice day if you don't mind. I still have my S2000 and some auto-x specific konis would be awesome. I've owned the OTS shocks and Motons and I'd love to drive the difference if you don't mind.