"Camber doesn't wear your tires, it's toe"
12-18-2015, 03:41 PM
#1
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"Camber doesn't wear your tires, it's toe"
Questions always go like this (in a nutshell):
Question: "I'm running -3 camber and I have too much camber wear! what do I do to keep from wearing the inside shoulders of my tires??"
Response: "It's not camber wearing your tires, it's toe wear. Fix your toe. "
I disagree with the statement that TOE is the problem. Toe is not the problem, Camber is. Toe may be a single solution to decreasing camber wear, but camber is still the problem, here's what I think:
Let's assume a perfect world where you only drive in a straight line and have perfect tire pressures, zero caster, yada yada. If you have zero degrees camber and zero degrees toe, then theoretically you should have even wear across the entire tread patch right?
If you have zero camber and ANY toe, then you will wear your tires evenly across the tread patch, but will wear faster overall.
If you have zero toe and ANY negative camber, then you will wear your tires unevenly, wearing the inside shoulder more.
So how is inside shoulder tire wear NOT considered camber wear but instead toe wear? that doesn't make sense.
To combat camber wear, you can add toe and make tire wear more evenly, but you get overall faster tire wear.
So yes you can say the LACK of toe can contribute to MORE camber wear, but I don't think it's right to say it's just a TOE problem. Adjusting toe is just a bandaid fix for the camber wear. The initial problem is the presence of anything other than zero camber, ie. camber wear.
am I right or am I wrong?
Question: "I'm running -3 camber and I have too much camber wear! what do I do to keep from wearing the inside shoulders of my tires??"
Response: "It's not camber wearing your tires, it's toe wear. Fix your toe. "
I disagree with the statement that TOE is the problem. Toe is not the problem, Camber is. Toe may be a single solution to decreasing camber wear, but camber is still the problem, here's what I think:
Let's assume a perfect world where you only drive in a straight line and have perfect tire pressures, zero caster, yada yada. If you have zero degrees camber and zero degrees toe, then theoretically you should have even wear across the entire tread patch right?
If you have zero camber and ANY toe, then you will wear your tires evenly across the tread patch, but will wear faster overall.
If you have zero toe and ANY negative camber, then you will wear your tires unevenly, wearing the inside shoulder more.
So how is inside shoulder tire wear NOT considered camber wear but instead toe wear? that doesn't make sense.
To combat camber wear, you can add toe and make tire wear more evenly, but you get overall faster tire wear.
So yes you can say the LACK of toe can contribute to MORE camber wear, but I don't think it's right to say it's just a TOE problem. Adjusting toe is just a bandaid fix for the camber wear. The initial problem is the presence of anything other than zero camber, ie. camber wear.
am I right or am I wrong?
12-18-2015, 03:57 PM
#2
I spent the first 2 to 3 years of my auto repair "career" doing alignments. Ugh.
Toe will cause the tire to scrub across the pavement as the tire rolls, causing in extreme cases a very feather edge wear. Toe out causes the feathering in a inside out vs toe-in causing outside in. This is provided the camber angle is close to zero. Camber either way will severely aggravate which edge is worn if the camber matches the toe angle direction.
Camber, most definitely will cause rapid wear on the part of the tire the camber is leaning towards, negative, inside edge, positive, outer.
As a severe example, my own car (not the S) 2004 Accord 6 spd, I had the HFP suspension package put on when new. Supposedly no alignment needed. BS.
After a near crash from a very snappy rear end due to near 4 degrees negative on the right and 3.5 degrees on the left along with 15mm total toe OUT, which caused the tires to bald off the tread of the rear tires, except the very last outer tread blocks in less than 12,000 miles. This is really poor on a fwd car with such low loading on the rear tires. I had to get ingalls arms for the rear. Currently it runs -.9 degrees both sides, half tank of fuel with 1.5mm toe in on both sides to aid stability.
Some cars can tolerate much more negative camber depending on suspension geometry and slight toe out without rapid wear. From what understand, may be wrong, if you run slight negative camber on the front with slight toe-out, the car will turn in better and be more responsive. Toe-in on the front can add straight line stability. Many BMW and Benz run this way, and run quite positive caster angles, this aids high speed on center stability and self centering and can decrease tire wear in certain situations as the wheels are turned through their range of motion.
My S2000, had an alignment done by the previous owner not long before I bought it. I installed new tires on it (4), the fronts show no odd wear at 9000 miles, the rears, almost done, are worn fairly even across, slightly more on the inside due to the S's stock settings.
Toe will cause the tire to scrub across the pavement as the tire rolls, causing in extreme cases a very feather edge wear. Toe out causes the feathering in a inside out vs toe-in causing outside in. This is provided the camber angle is close to zero. Camber either way will severely aggravate which edge is worn if the camber matches the toe angle direction.
Camber, most definitely will cause rapid wear on the part of the tire the camber is leaning towards, negative, inside edge, positive, outer.
As a severe example, my own car (not the S) 2004 Accord 6 spd, I had the HFP suspension package put on when new. Supposedly no alignment needed. BS.
After a near crash from a very snappy rear end due to near 4 degrees negative on the right and 3.5 degrees on the left along with 15mm total toe OUT, which caused the tires to bald off the tread of the rear tires, except the very last outer tread blocks in less than 12,000 miles. This is really poor on a fwd car with such low loading on the rear tires. I had to get ingalls arms for the rear. Currently it runs -.9 degrees both sides, half tank of fuel with 1.5mm toe in on both sides to aid stability.
Some cars can tolerate much more negative camber depending on suspension geometry and slight toe out without rapid wear. From what understand, may be wrong, if you run slight negative camber on the front with slight toe-out, the car will turn in better and be more responsive. Toe-in on the front can add straight line stability. Many BMW and Benz run this way, and run quite positive caster angles, this aids high speed on center stability and self centering and can decrease tire wear in certain situations as the wheels are turned through their range of motion.
My S2000, had an alignment done by the previous owner not long before I bought it. I installed new tires on it (4), the fronts show no odd wear at 9000 miles, the rears, almost done, are worn fairly even across, slightly more on the inside due to the S's stock settings.
12-19-2015, 12:05 AM
#3
-3 is getting a bit extreme for road use, but will still have only minor effect on your tyre wear, if you are using modern soft sidewall tyres at reasonable pressures. On my F1 Brabham we ran -2 on the front, with very soft sidewall Dunlop racing tyres, & both the temperature across the tread, & the wear was even. We established this camber by temperature measurement. Even temperature across the tyre indicated it was working evenly across the road surface.
On the other hand, just a little error in toe in or out will rapidly wear your tyres, very unevenly. The early Hillman Imps ran 6 degrees positive camber, & showed little excess wear from even this extreme camber.
On the other hand, just a little error in toe in or out will rapidly wear your tyres, very unevenly. The early Hillman Imps ran 6 degrees positive camber, & showed little excess wear from even this extreme camber.
12-19-2015, 10:01 AM
#4
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uhh i think you guys are misunderstanding my post. i don't need to discuss actual setups at all....i'm just talking about how annoying it is when someone says "hey get it right stupid, camber isn't your problem, it's toe!!!!"
12-19-2015, 10:58 AM
#5
Take something round (like a jar lid) and put a rubber band around it to represent a tire. Roll it along a table with zero toe. Rolls no problem right?
Now, angle the lid to represent toe-in. Now roll it while also pushing it straight along just as your car would with toe-in. What happens? The outside edge is leading the inside edge and you are basically scrubbing the tire along the surface. The leading edge of the rubber band is going to roll under and cause the rubber band to come off the lid.
Repeat the experiment, but now with toe out. Now the inside edge of the tire is leading the outside. Again, you'll notice you are scrubbing the rubber band against the surface as you try to roll it but also keep it going straight ahead.
Lastly, go back to zero toe but add in some camber and try rolling it straight. No prob right? With camber, you'll get wear when you brake and accelerate. But if you're just rolling without braking or accelerating, the tires is not getting scrubbed against the surface and therefore very little wear. However, when you have toe-in or toe-out, you are scrubbing the tire against the road surface 100% of the time which is why toe causes a tire to wear much much faster.
Now, angle the lid to represent toe-in. Now roll it while also pushing it straight along just as your car would with toe-in. What happens? The outside edge is leading the inside edge and you are basically scrubbing the tire along the surface. The leading edge of the rubber band is going to roll under and cause the rubber band to come off the lid.
Repeat the experiment, but now with toe out. Now the inside edge of the tire is leading the outside. Again, you'll notice you are scrubbing the rubber band against the surface as you try to roll it but also keep it going straight ahead.
Lastly, go back to zero toe but add in some camber and try rolling it straight. No prob right? With camber, you'll get wear when you brake and accelerate. But if you're just rolling without braking or accelerating, the tires is not getting scrubbed against the surface and therefore very little wear. However, when you have toe-in or toe-out, you are scrubbing the tire against the road surface 100% of the time which is why toe causes a tire to wear much much faster.
12-19-2015, 11:15 AM
#6
good one spdracerut,
So the worst of both worlds is camber with toe. Camber reduces the size of the patch and toe scrubs the crap out of it.
So if you have camber wear with toe, reducing either will lessen the effect. Less camber gives you a bigger patch so it seems to reduce the wear, or at least makes the wear more even, thus making the camber wear go away. Less toe and there is less scrubbing action so it will reduce wear.
Like everything else in this world it is balance between forces and not an absolute.
So the worst of both worlds is camber with toe. Camber reduces the size of the patch and toe scrubs the crap out of it.
So if you have camber wear with toe, reducing either will lessen the effect. Less camber gives you a bigger patch so it seems to reduce the wear, or at least makes the wear more even, thus making the camber wear go away. Less toe and there is less scrubbing action so it will reduce wear.
Like everything else in this world it is balance between forces and not an absolute.
12-19-2015, 01:18 PM
#7
I'm sick of this statement as well. It can be both. I think the statement came about because small amounts of toe (which is more common than camber being off) can cause wear more than small amounts of camber being off. I've got 0 toe up front, -1.5 neg camber, and my tires will ALWAYS wear on the inside if I don't rotate.
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12-19-2015, 01:21 PM
#8
-3 is getting a bit extreme for road use, but will still have only minor effect on your tyre wear, if you are using modern soft sidewall tyres at reasonable pressures. On my F1 Brabham we ran -2 on the front, with very soft sidewall Dunlop racing tyres, & both the temperature across the tread, & the wear was even. We established this camber by temperature measurement. Even temperature across the tyre indicated it was working evenly across the road surface.
On the other hand, just a little error in toe in or out will rapidly wear your tyres, very unevenly. The early Hillman Imps ran 6 degrees positive camber, & showed little excess wear from even this extreme camber.
On the other hand, just a little error in toe in or out will rapidly wear your tyres, very unevenly. The early Hillman Imps ran 6 degrees positive camber, & showed little excess wear from even this extreme camber.
Couldn't be the incredibly beautiful BT52? Or any of the BT49-53's?
12-19-2015, 02:10 PM
#9
Take something round (like a jar lid) and put a rubber band around it to represent a tire. Roll it along a table with zero toe. Rolls no problem right?
Now, angle the lid to represent toe-in. Now roll it while also pushing it straight along just as your car would with toe-in. What happens? The outside edge is leading the inside edge and you are basically scrubbing the tire along the surface. The leading edge of the rubber band is going to roll under and cause the rubber band to come off the lid.
Repeat the experiment, but now with toe out. Now the inside edge of the tire is leading the outside. Again, you'll notice you are scrubbing the rubber band against the surface as you try to roll it but also keep it going straight ahead.
Lastly, go back to zero toe but add in some camber and try rolling it straight. No prob right? With camber, you'll get wear when you brake and accelerate. But if you're just rolling without braking or accelerating, the tires is not getting scrubbed against the surface and therefore very little wear. However, when you have toe-in or toe-out, you are scrubbing the tire against the road surface 100% of the time which is why toe causes a tire to wear much much faster.
Now, angle the lid to represent toe-in. Now roll it while also pushing it straight along just as your car would with toe-in. What happens? The outside edge is leading the inside edge and you are basically scrubbing the tire along the surface. The leading edge of the rubber band is going to roll under and cause the rubber band to come off the lid.
Repeat the experiment, but now with toe out. Now the inside edge of the tire is leading the outside. Again, you'll notice you are scrubbing the rubber band against the surface as you try to roll it but also keep it going straight ahead.
Lastly, go back to zero toe but add in some camber and try rolling it straight. No prob right? With camber, you'll get wear when you brake and accelerate. But if you're just rolling without braking or accelerating, the tires is not getting scrubbed against the surface and therefore very little wear. However, when you have toe-in or toe-out, you are scrubbing the tire against the road surface 100% of the time which is why toe causes a tire to wear much much faster.
Inner shoulder camber wear shouldn't really be a concern if you are looking to maximize tire grip and will be driving the car in a way that makes use of the additional camber. The whole point of additional static camber is to make better use of the tire across it's contact patch when the car is loaded to one side and the tire is at much higher temperatures where it is more critical and will wear much faster. A small amount of inner shoulder wear (normal driving at low temps) is perfectly acceptable compared to a huge amount of outer shoulder wear from more aggressive driving at much higher temps. The inner shoulders do see high temps at high speeds and under heavy braking, but not compared to the temps seen on the outer shoulders with the car loaded up through a corner and the tires being aggressively scrubbed.
I think the issue is thinking people are saying it's toe that causes inner shoulder wear, when they are simply saying toe plays a larger role when wearing your tires overall, and will result in more wear no matter what your camber. But the way you drive the car is the biggest variable.
12-19-2015, 06:25 PM
#10
I have to agree with the OP. In my experience, unless you take turns hard and very often, you will get excessive camber wear with more than 1.5 degrees. I killed the inside shoulders on a pair of Hankook v12's in 13k miles running 2.25-2.75 degrees of camber (I was able to rotate them front to rear because of my square setup, hence the diff. camber numbers) with 0 toe. These tires probably would've lasted me 30k miles on my car if it were possible to have 0 camber. It feels really awful to have to throw away a pair of tires with only 1/3 of the tread worn off.