Subwoofer placement Trunk vs. Interior
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I think in-cabin is the right place for a sub in the S2000 and there are multiple options for installation.
Benefits:
-Better sound quality using less power
-Less outside-the-car sound
-Much less of a rattle issue
-Zero usable space loss with some installs
-Can be completely stealth
In the thread linked below I posted links to other S2000 in-cabin sub installs, in case anyone is interested.
My personal opinion is the trunk location is a secondary solution for particular subwoofer needs, mostly for large sized sub boxes or to achieve a desired "look," or for simplicity (if you are willing to give up space and make the other sacrifices, it is much simpler to build in the trunk.)
Otherwise the best reason to have a speaker in the trunk is if you are listening in the trunk.
I have never wanted to occupy valuable space back there or give up my spare tire. And I never listen to my stereo outside my car.
Here are a couple pics of mine (Install thread HERE):
Benefits:
-Better sound quality using less power
-Less outside-the-car sound
-Much less of a rattle issue
-Zero usable space loss with some installs
-Can be completely stealth
In the thread linked below I posted links to other S2000 in-cabin sub installs, in case anyone is interested.
My personal opinion is the trunk location is a secondary solution for particular subwoofer needs, mostly for large sized sub boxes or to achieve a desired "look," or for simplicity (if you are willing to give up space and make the other sacrifices, it is much simpler to build in the trunk.)
Otherwise the best reason to have a speaker in the trunk is if you are listening in the trunk.
I have never wanted to occupy valuable space back there or give up my spare tire. And I never listen to my stereo outside my car.
Here are a couple pics of mine (Install thread HERE):
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From: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted by Chadwick,Jan 1 2005, 10:44 AM
A friend described it to me once that for SQ, speciffically at the competition level, putting subs and speakers in front of you was the goal.
You're looking for a sound like you were really at a concert. How many of you go to a concert and turn your back to the speakers? That's fundamentally what you're doing by placing speakers behind you.
But if you're looking for SQ above all, you may have chose the wrong car to do it in by choosing the S2000.
You're looking for a sound like you were really at a concert. How many of you go to a concert and turn your back to the speakers? That's fundamentally what you're doing by placing speakers behind you.
But if you're looking for SQ above all, you may have chose the wrong car to do it in by choosing the S2000.
We are three dimensional creatures living in a world of 3d sound. In the real world there IS sound behind us.
So as far as trying to re-create that single vision of being at a concert with the stage in front of you, yeah, it seems like most of the speakers should be up front.
But I think it is possible to be much more creative than that. In many other aspects entertainment technology is moving us from the "observer" perspective to the "participant" perspective. "Stage in front of you" is hopefully a dying "ideal."
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From: Tiffin, Ohio
Originally Posted by LATEOTT,Jan 1 2005, 03:02 PM
But I think it is possible to be much more creative than that. In many other aspects entertainment technology is moving us from the "observer" perspective to the "participant" perspective. "Stage in front of you" is hopefully a dying "ideal."
However, I would like to counterpoint something though. Having been in orchestra band for several years, being on stage performing doesn't give you the same musical experience sitting in the audience. Being on stage where you're at you're "drowned out" by the closest instruments to you. Granted my ear could pick out every intstrument in the large group, the trombone section (which I was in) was always louder and more prominent.
When sitting in the audience and observing the performance, everything sounds "equal" in the sense you can hear all the instruments with "equal" sound intensity and depth.
The ideal listening point in this situation would then be where the conductor is, and he all the music is still arriving at him from his front. Granted there'll be a natural echo from the back of the hall being bounced back to the listener, but most recordings have that echo removed or extremely diminished by facing the mic towards the band or attaching it to the specific instrument.
Unless your listening to a surround sound recording with that natural ambience built into the recording, having speakers behind you wouldn't accurately reproduce the enviroment anyways.
Just a thought.
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even though the goal is to have the sound coming in front of you by placing drivers upfront, many have done well with a subwoofer in the trunk where you cannot locate where the driver actually is
most would describe Tweeter's manager BMW as one of those where the sub will hit and you would not know where it came from i like that 
most would describe Tweeter's manager BMW as one of those where the sub will hit and you would not know where it came from
i like that
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From: New Slowmyrna Beach
the lower the frequency the more difficult it is to detect the direction from which the sound is coming from. Think thunder vs. chirping birds. Given this there should be no difference where you put the sub, right? no way.
By putting the sub in your trunk you essentially putting it into another room. There's lots of stuff that muffles the sound between the cabin and the listeners. The trunk itself acts as another enclosure. This is why I "ported" my trunk enclosure into the cabin.
My sub is still n the trunk, and here's why:
The S is a sports car first, and when i bought it, I was not thinking of SQ. I know that having a sub in the cabin will help with SQ for sure, but the installs I have seen, some of which are amazing, look labor intensive. I believe given the labor and time they involve, there are diminishing returns for me and my daily driver, not a show car or competition car.
Especially considering this is a "purists" sports car, at least to a greater extent than it is a "purist" audio car...
But for those of you who want it, more power to you. & i'd love to hear them at the next group drive if any of happen to be there. I've heard a few, but so far the best sounding S2ks I have heard have been trunk subs. But I believe that a better effect can be achieved with an in cabin set-up.
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From: Long Beach
For those who were wondering, this debate started in the stickied pictures thread. I'm glad NFRs2000NYC started the new thread, because I didn't mean to hijack the other.
I don't really have much more to add to the topic than what I already said previously. My motivation for the location of the sub in my car is twofold: it saves me valuable space, AND it should sound better. I wanted to keep my spare tire, and in order to do that, needed to keep the toolwell space in the trunk. Plus it's also nice to have that storage space available.
As tight as the interior of our car is, there really is an abundance of passenger footwell space. I had a female friend of mine who is 5'8" sit in my passenger seat and let me know where she was comfortable, and it was with her feet a good 8-10" behind the firewall, which is about the amount of space my enclosure should consume. To me it's a win-win situation.
I don't really have much more to add to the topic than what I already said previously. My motivation for the location of the sub in my car is twofold: it saves me valuable space, AND it should sound better. I wanted to keep my spare tire, and in order to do that, needed to keep the toolwell space in the trunk. Plus it's also nice to have that storage space available.
As tight as the interior of our car is, there really is an abundance of passenger footwell space. I had a female friend of mine who is 5'8" sit in my passenger seat and let me know where she was comfortable, and it was with her feet a good 8-10" behind the firewall, which is about the amount of space my enclosure should consume. To me it's a win-win situation.
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
regarding Dave's comments from the other thread:
actually, the reason that subs are usually located far away from you is more complicated...
a bass note at 60 hz has a wave cycle of 60 times per second (definition of hertz). given that sound travels at 340 meters / second (about 1130 ft / second), the wavelength of a 60 hz tone is about 20 feet. so it takes 20 feet MINIMUM before the wave has fully propgated. anything closer than that, and you will not properly hear the tone.
now, let's look at a tone closer to deep bass -- say 30 hz. 30 cycles per second. calculating gives us 37 FEET to propgate that bass note fully. so, that one you'll feel far better than you'll hear it. the further the sub is away from you, the better you'll hear the tones of deep bass notes.
any serious sound guy who's worked live sound knows this stuff... it's why you'll see a good sound guy locate the bassist's amp/monitor across the stage from him...
locating subs close to walls, corners, etc. gives the waveform bounces and such to help the bass wave travel further before it reaches your ears.
locating it close to your physical proximity gives you better 'feel' for the bass many times, since the amplitude is higher.
to better get a feel for this -- put on some VERY deep bass, listen to it just outside your car, then walk away about 30 feet and see if you don't hear the note in a more true tone. (naturally, it will not be as loud).
all that being said -- i'd rather a sub in cabin, more in front of me than behind, and optimally, WAY in front of me. still, w/ deep bass, it becomes non-directional and it's easy to cross things over low and make it so that you can fool your ears to thinking the sub is in front of you...
but Willie said it best in the end:
edit: corrected 60 hz to 20 feet and not 2. see comments below.
Ever wonder why subs in movie theaters are behind the screen, and not in the middle of the room?
EVer wonder when you make a $10000 home theater setup, you put your subwoofer in the corner, or under the floor even, instead of on the couch with you??? Because in the corner near 2 walls, the vibrations transfer better.
Bass is made to be felt, not heard. The human ear doesnt like low freq. If I stuck a sub near your head, in a box, and played a long 80hz note, you would be extremely annoyed. However, the same note properly placed (in a car, that would be a trunk) the sound transforms into a nice pleaseant feeling. Midbass yes, is supposed to surround you. Low bass, is supposed to be felt, away from you.
EVer wonder when you make a $10000 home theater setup, you put your subwoofer in the corner, or under the floor even, instead of on the couch with you??? Because in the corner near 2 walls, the vibrations transfer better.
Bass is made to be felt, not heard. The human ear doesnt like low freq. If I stuck a sub near your head, in a box, and played a long 80hz note, you would be extremely annoyed. However, the same note properly placed (in a car, that would be a trunk) the sound transforms into a nice pleaseant feeling. Midbass yes, is supposed to surround you. Low bass, is supposed to be felt, away from you.
a bass note at 60 hz has a wave cycle of 60 times per second (definition of hertz). given that sound travels at 340 meters / second (about 1130 ft / second), the wavelength of a 60 hz tone is about 20 feet. so it takes 20 feet MINIMUM before the wave has fully propgated. anything closer than that, and you will not properly hear the tone.
now, let's look at a tone closer to deep bass -- say 30 hz. 30 cycles per second. calculating gives us 37 FEET to propgate that bass note fully. so, that one you'll feel far better than you'll hear it. the further the sub is away from you, the better you'll hear the tones of deep bass notes.
any serious sound guy who's worked live sound knows this stuff... it's why you'll see a good sound guy locate the bassist's amp/monitor across the stage from him...
locating subs close to walls, corners, etc. gives the waveform bounces and such to help the bass wave travel further before it reaches your ears.
locating it close to your physical proximity gives you better 'feel' for the bass many times, since the amplitude is higher.
to better get a feel for this -- put on some VERY deep bass, listen to it just outside your car, then walk away about 30 feet and see if you don't hear the note in a more true tone. (naturally, it will not be as loud).
all that being said -- i'd rather a sub in cabin, more in front of me than behind, and optimally, WAY in front of me. still, w/ deep bass, it becomes non-directional and it's easy to cross things over low and make it so that you can fool your ears to thinking the sub is in front of you...
but Willie said it best in the end:
My sub is still n the trunk, and here's why:
The S is a sports car first, and when i bought it, I was not thinking of SQ. I know that having a sub in the cabin will help with SQ for sure, but the installs I have seen, some of which are amazing, look labor intensive. I believe given the labor and time they involve, there are diminishing returns for me and my daily driver, not a show car or competition car.
Especially considering this is a "purists" sports car, at least to a greater extent than it is a "purist" audio car...
But for those of you who want it, more power to you. & i'd love to hear them at the next group drive if any of happen to be there. I've heard a few, but so far the best sounding S2ks I have heard have been trunk subs. But I believe that a better effect can be achieved with an in cabin set-up.
The S is a sports car first, and when i bought it, I was not thinking of SQ. I know that having a sub in the cabin will help with SQ for sure, but the installs I have seen, some of which are amazing, look labor intensive. I believe given the labor and time they involve, there are diminishing returns for me and my daily driver, not a show car or competition car.
Especially considering this is a "purists" sports car, at least to a greater extent than it is a "purist" audio car...
But for those of you who want it, more power to you. & i'd love to hear them at the next group drive if any of happen to be there. I've heard a few, but so far the best sounding S2ks I have heard have been trunk subs. But I believe that a better effect can be achieved with an in cabin set-up.
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From: Tiffin, Ohio
Originally Posted by PJK3,Jan 2 2005, 05:54 PM
regarding Dave's comments from the other thread:
actually, the reason that subs are usually located far away from you is more complicated...
a bass note at 60 hz has a wave cycle of 60 times per second (definition of hertz). given that sound travels at 340 meters / second (about 1130 ft / second), the wavelength of a 60 hz tone is about 2 feet. so it takes 2 feet MINIMUM before the wave has fully propgated. anything closer than that, and you will not properly hear the tone.
now, let's look at a tone closer to deep bass -- say 30 hz. 30 cycles per second. calculating gives us 37 FEET to propgate that bass note fully. so, that one you'll feel far better than you'll hear it. the further the sub is away from you, the better you'll hear the tones of deep bass notes.
any serious sound guy who's worked live sound knows this stuff... it's why you'll see a good sound guy locate the bassist's amp/monitor across the stage from him...
locating subs close to walls, corners, etc. gives the waveform bounces and such to help the bass wave travel further before it reaches your ears.
locating it close to your physical proximity gives you better 'feel' for the bass many times, since the amplitude is higher.
to better get a feel for this -- put on some VERY deep bass, listen to it just outside your car, then walk away about 30 feet and see if you don't hear the note in a more true tone. (naturally, it will not be as loud).
all that being said -- i'd rather a sub in cabin, more in front of me than behind, and optimally, WAY in front of me. still, w/ deep bass, it becomes non-directional and it's easy to cross things over low and make it so that you can fool your ears to thinking the sub is in front of you...
but Willie said it best in the end:
actually, the reason that subs are usually located far away from you is more complicated...
a bass note at 60 hz has a wave cycle of 60 times per second (definition of hertz). given that sound travels at 340 meters / second (about 1130 ft / second), the wavelength of a 60 hz tone is about 2 feet. so it takes 2 feet MINIMUM before the wave has fully propgated. anything closer than that, and you will not properly hear the tone.
now, let's look at a tone closer to deep bass -- say 30 hz. 30 cycles per second. calculating gives us 37 FEET to propgate that bass note fully. so, that one you'll feel far better than you'll hear it. the further the sub is away from you, the better you'll hear the tones of deep bass notes.
any serious sound guy who's worked live sound knows this stuff... it's why you'll see a good sound guy locate the bassist's amp/monitor across the stage from him...
locating subs close to walls, corners, etc. gives the waveform bounces and such to help the bass wave travel further before it reaches your ears.
locating it close to your physical proximity gives you better 'feel' for the bass many times, since the amplitude is higher.
to better get a feel for this -- put on some VERY deep bass, listen to it just outside your car, then walk away about 30 feet and see if you don't hear the note in a more true tone. (naturally, it will not be as loud).
all that being said -- i'd rather a sub in cabin, more in front of me than behind, and optimally, WAY in front of me. still, w/ deep bass, it becomes non-directional and it's easy to cross things over low and make it so that you can fool your ears to thinking the sub is in front of you...
but Willie said it best in the end:
