Ok guys here is a real technical question.
I am researching a possible way to actively cool forced induction charge temperatures or even natural aspirated setups using a technology developed for the space program.
DOES NOT REQUIRE YOUR AC SYSTEM!!!

Here is some of the info that I need to continue to develop my idea.
When using either a centrifugal supercharger or a turbo setup running the average pressure of 6 to 9psi gauge(at the throttle body) how much heat energy is need to be removed from the intake air charge in
BTU/hr=???
Watts=????
And the flow rate in
CFM/min=????

Also what is the normal pressure drop experienced in the after-cooler/intercooler?
I will try to minimize this pressure drop. Just need a number to shoot for.

What is the normal temperature rise due to compression in a supercharger/turbo running between 6 to 8psi gauge.
Temperature rise in deg F=???
Want to develop this idea under the worst case with at least a factory of safety of 2.

 

Remember when that meant something? Now I'm worried that this product will cause my front fender to fall off striking my rear tire causing it to blow out and send me careening into a bridge abutment


But seriously, the idea sounds cool. I wish I could offer up some knowledge to help you obtain the figures you're looking for but I have no clue

 

l8brakr - LOL, that is funny.

deppenma - Can't help but would be interested to know what you have in mind.

 

The idea I have is an adaptation of cooling plate technology that is used to cool some of the large electronic pieces inside of the space shuttle crew cabin.

This has been looked at before by some other car guys however no one followed up with real numbers.
Everybody before me wanted to just use this type of cooling to cool the entire intake air charge. What I am proposing is still us an intercooler to reduce the charge Temperature 30 to 40 deg then use this to lower charge temps another 10to 20 deg F.

If one was to use this technology by its self the electrical demand would soon out weight the supply of the alternator / battery.

What I am thinking is a tubular section of piping with an internal grid of cooling plates that run parallel with the air flow direction. The out side of this pipe then would need some sort of heat exchanger. I am proposing on having (as best as I can describe it) spires coming off of the outer circumference of the pipe thus giving one a lot of surface area to remove the heat energy removed from the air charge. The ability to remove the heat energy from the system should not be the limiting factor for the performance of the system only the amount of current supplied should.

Cooling effect would be controlled by a down stream thermocouple that would control the amount of current supplied to the system. The more current the system gets the colder the cooling plates become. Most of these system run off of 24VDC however some manufacture are starting to develop systems the run off of 12VDC with a current requirement of 4 to 12amps depending on cooling demand.

Note:
One must be sure not to cool the charge to a point where water would start to form.
AND
It is possible to cool the intake charge to much (all though this would exceed the electrical supply) to a point (well below freezing) where regular pump gas(93) would not fully atomize correctly thus no combustion.

Another thought is to put the blow off valve before the cooler. Why would you want to blow off an air charge that has been cooled below ambient. You are just wasting the effort to cool the charge. Either that or pipe the blow off back into the intake side of the compressor

 

Basically your trying to devise a peltier system? I say buy a pelt. and open it up see what you have to work with, when you design yours just make it much larger.

For those who dont know a peltier system is used in alot of computers, basically its like being water cooled without the water. The cold side touches the CPU, and the Hot side gets cooled by air(or some ppl do use water). In turn ppl are able to get mad Overclocks on their Computer, there have been records that show there are 500 MHz increase in CPU speed, and even in some case 1000 MHz!!!

 

Serious (Crazy) people use liquid Nitrogen.

 

Peltier system you are correct give that man a cookie.
But unlike previous attempts by some other people this unit will not need to handle the full removal of the heat generated due to compression. A standard intercooler or after cooler will be used prior to the peltier system. If we assume that the standard intercooler/aftercooler is able to reduce the charge temperature back to ambient the design intent is then to remove at least another 20deg F from the intake charge temperature as long as the final intake temperature does not reach the dew point +5deg F.

If one was to have the final temperature be below the due point water would start to collect in the system. This could be bad or good depending if the due could/would be picked up by the air stream(AKA water injection) that in its self is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem happens when this due is not picked up at a sufficient rate water could start to build up in the system to the point that it does get picked up by the air stream causing sufficient water to be ingested to a point of causing hydrolock.

 

Peltier devices work using conduction of heat from the hot part (typically the CPU in a PC) to the cold side of the Peltier. The cold side of the Peltier device is directly touching the hot CPU, with thermal paste between them to ensure good contact with no air gaps. The heat flows from the CPU to the cold side of the Peltier, then to the Peltier's hot side, where it is convected out to the air by fan.

What you are proposing is to try to make a Peltier device work in reverse, using convection of heat from the air to the cold side of the Peltier. I presume you would then dump the heat via conduction to a large metal heat sink? Sounds interesting. But probably needs a lot of electrical current. As you mentioned, how may amps depends on ambient (sink) temp, air charge temp, and flowrate.

Flowrate can be calculated by multiplying displacement, rpm, and boost pressure ratio. Charge air temp is a function of compressor efficiency and varies with each supercharger. But all superchargers (compressors) have a temperature ratio that is somehow related to boost pressure ratio. That relationship is called adiabatic efficiency.

I saw on a website that someone? has a liquid-air heat exchanger about 3/4" or 1" in diameter by maybe 1 ft long that they envision somehow casting into the intake manifold for an aftercooler. I forget the website, but it was one of the lesser-known supercharger makers I think. I know that the guy who is developing the axial supercharger for RX-8 and S2000 (see other link in FI forum) is considering a new intake manifold casting with one of these liquid-air heat exchangers in it.

 

I hate to be the Devil's advocate but what's your price point? I can think of quite a few simpler, more effective ways of lowering intake temps in addition to traditional intercooling. Ice water/alcohol in air-water I/C, water or alky injection, I/C water sprayers, nitrous or CO2 sprayers ect.

 

With all of your proven effective suggestions something must be refilled or replaced at given intervals.
If this actually works and the amount of current needed does not exceeds the amount that can be supplied by the alternator nothing will ever need to be refilled/replace/serviced.

I have something drawn up in a PDF file is there a simple way to post a file???
That drawing should clear thing up on what I am thinking.

I will try to describe it here.

If one was to take the standard aftercooler (Vortech / Comtech) the Peltier system would remove additional heat from the water cooling circuit post the mini front mount radiator and prior to the input to the aftercooler. The Peltier system would need to be designed in such a way to have the cold side manufactured like you basic heat exchanger which would be placed in the cooling water circuit flow path. The hot side of the Peltier system would either need to be placed in it own water bath with its own circulating pump and front mount radiator or actually be placed in front of the factory radiator for cooling.

So the Peltier would only need to pull out the necessary BTU to lower the charge temperature below ambient; the main system would get the charge temp back down to around ambient.

I have seen Peltier capable of removing 600BUT/hr running off of 12VDC and 12amps of current and this is running at 40% of design limits to ensure long life expectancy.


So does anyone know how much energy on an average (BUT/hr or BTU/min) is necessary to remove from the water cooling circuit of a Vortech / Comtech aftercooler post front mount mini radiator to cause the final charge temperature to be approx 20deg below ambient.

Another question I have how much power would be gained from reducing the charge temp 20deg below ambient considering the increased density and the fact that spark timing can now be advanced a bit.

If the numbers work out I would like to calculate the amoutn of +HP/$ amount
to see if this is even worth making.