Ive spent a bit of time searching on here for discussions on ignition timing but seem to be drawing a blank. I'm trying to find out what sort of numbers people are running, when I first fitted the supercharger and created a basemap the car seemed to pull really well with stock timing and very little ignition retard.

I pulled the ignition timing by 0.5 degrees per psi and plan on leaving it like that until I get a new clutch as the stock one slips, even though it's running 12-12.5 AFR when in boost there is some black smoke from the exhaust, mainly visible when on the rollers. I'm thinking this is down to the timing that I pulled but as the clutch needs replacing I couldn't increase the timing to try and dial it out.

So if anyone has any screenshots of their timing maps, some advice on what sort of timing numbers they are running or links to some good timing discussions that would be really helpful.

 

I have found that's its difficult to get this specific information from members here, in part becuase most send thier cars out to get tuned rather then tune themselves, and or don't know how to access thier timing map and how to read it.

as someone that tunes thier own supercharged car, the general rule is retarding 1 degree of timing per 1psi of boost. But there are variables to achieving a more precise and safe tune. I will tell you from experience that a low/base pressure up to about 8-9psi has ran great, detonation free for me in normal aggressive street driving scenarios with stock timing map. The older base 6psi comptech kits provided no means to retard timing in their kits and have run reliably long term for many people.
As your boost pressure goes up, and as you reach the limits of the blower speed, your iat will go up and as that happens you need to pull more timing to keep that detonation threshold down. Higher combustion temp from more boost and hotter air entering the combustion chamber will make the engine detonate easier, so the timing retard has to reflect this. 12 to 12.5afr is a pretty spot on target for a moderately boosted supercharged car with the right timing. More fuel will cool the combustion a bit and allow for more timing or more safety. The sign of a good tuner is for them to properly gauge where your car is running and finding the best balance. Generally superchargers are pretty forgiving on this engine though, so it gives you a lot of leeway for running safe on a bit of a lack luster tune.

 

As Junky said, it's difficult to find maps for a variety of reasons. You didn't give any specs on your setup which might help some guys help you better.

Here's my fuel and ignition maps. Running Comptech Novi 1000, 3.6 or 3.8" pulley (don't remember) with just under 10 lbs boost. ID 1000 injectors, stock map sensor, upgraded heat exchanger. Pretty simple setup with about 350 whp.

Here's my fuel and ignition maps - FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. Please don't try random stuff from the internet on your car. This pic is of settings specific to my car and setup, so consider them extremely random.

I am only sharing because examples really are hard to find. I did get my hands on a few with some digging and it help me through the learning process. I still don't know what hell I am doing, but I do have a better understanding of what all this stuff means.

Good luck.

 

^^^ That looks to be about what id expect out of a 10psi timing map. The stock s2k max timing is 30-32 degrees ave depending on conditions, so based on that and the general rule of retarding 1 degree of timing per 1lb of boost, your peak timing does this by reflecting 20 degrees total I see. Also notice if you run a diagonal line from redline to 3-4k rpm that timing progressively increases as boost linearly decreases as I would also expect.

The only area I might look at would be where your new lowered vtec comes in and possibly having more timing in that range ( roughly 4-6k rpm) where the motor wants that extra timing now. On a stock na s when you look at the timing map, the primary cam to secondary cam switch over timing jumps about 6 degrees, so when you lower vtec to say 4k you basically want to blend 6 degrees of timing advancement from that rpm range to the old stock engagement of 5900rpm. But of course this is all based on generalities and outside influences have to be accounted for. Overall that timing map looks pretty smooth and linear from 0 vac to full boost/redline as it should in normal conditions thumbup:

 

Sorry for the lack of info, I'm running a TTS kit with a Rotrex C38-81, front mount intercooler, RC 750 injectors, Haltech Platinum Pro ECU, maximum boost is 12psi. Engine is a stock F20 and drivetrain is currently stock but I'm looking at replacing the clutch so I can finish tuning properly, I'll post a screenshot of my fuel and ignition maps when I get back to my home computer.

This isn't my first FI Honda, I've had several B series and D series turbos but never really did much with the ignition on those as they seemed quite happy with stock timing retarded linearly, I've always done my own tuning as I don't see why I would spend a lot of time and money building something and then handing it over to someone else to finish off, plus if I destroy my engine then it's my fault and I can live with that whereas if someone else did it I would be pretty annoyed even if it wasn't really their fault.

boony - those maps that you posted, to me that just looks like a basemap am I right? You haven't tuned them to that position have you?


My main goal with this is to try and tune out the black smoke, as I understand it black smoke is caused by running excessively rich or by having incorrect ignition timing. As my AFR is a solid 12-12.5:1 in boost and it transitions from 14:1 very smoothly I can only conclude that I should be running a little more timing to achieve correct combustion of the fuel. However this is where I get a bit nervous as I'm not sure how aggressive you can be with the ignition and it only takes a second to kill and engine with bad timing.

Thanks for all the help so far guys

 

Your right, you shouldn't be blowing black smoke from your afr as it is, if thats indeed what it is. Also at 12psi I wouldn't be comfortable running any more then about 20 degrees of timing at the top end, and as mentioned you should add about a degree of timing as you regress back to 0 boost. Your pulling only half a degree, so 24-25 peak? I wouldn't add any more timing, its quite possible your detonating now and that's what's cuasing an inconstant combustion and black smoke. So id suggest backing off the timing and see if that improves. Naturally you will run richer with less timing IF your currently not detonating. So make the corrections as needed there. Ultimately you should be able to get some gauge on where you are from this approach, as long as your heading in the right direction!

 

Awesome info.

Thumbs up!!!!

 

Nice to see people sharing their tunes/maps. I think a lot of people make tuning out to be this black magic that it isn't, and a lot of tuning can be done on the street. The fine tuning is best done on a dyno, but it's not necessary imo.

On my old b-series I think I ran ~.6 degree retard per lb of boost, but this was on a 9:1 compression motor, much less than the stock s2k. Running as much as 1 degree of retard per lb of boost is definitely safer, and should be fine. The only two bad things from retarding the timing too much will be less power and higher EGTs. It's definitely nice to have an EGT gauge to keep an eye on temps. Too much timing retard is a bad thing, but usually there's a reasonable window where you can make good power and keep things safe.

 

I don't see why people would hide this information but I have searched high and low and found nothing. A lot of people like to capitalise on knowledge which in my mind goes against what a community stands for whether it be cars or whatever, I'm happy to share anything I know as long as someone wants it.

So here are my timing maps, the top one is non vtec and the bottom is vtec. I realise that certain areas on it look a little bit odd but I'd rather have numbers in unused cells than leave them blank. This seems to be working very well for me at the moment but I do feel a little more timing would do it the world of good.

 

What are you running exhaust wise. Can you set the haltech to see knock and retard accordingly to help determine best ignition? I would say your timing is right on the money as long as you don't get a really hot day or do track days. I would pull another couple or 3 degrees to be safe. If your decatted you will see more black smoke then catted. black smoke can also mean det, so be careful! Obviously your running V power or close to it? Give me a call anytime to discuss. Richard