When to change titanium retainers?
 

Hey, bought my s2k with titanium retainers. I know the car used to be tracked because i can see where a roll cage was installed. Engine doesn't match VIN. how do i know when they need replaced? I know they wear out fast and its not that hard to change them.....

I usually leave them be until the valves/keepers show a little sign of sinking. As in, when you put a spring compressor on, if it doesn't start compressing the spring without tapping the top with a hammer, it's sinking....if that makes any sense.

Requiring a little tap to free up the keepers from the retainer is fine, but when it starts requiring a good bit of force, that's when I service the entire valvetrain.

Id just swap them out now with oem/ap2 for my own peace of mind.

You are worried about the retainers and not the valves or valve springs. All are wear items in a stressed environment.

The reason for Ti retainers and beehive springs, and a secondary advantage of conical springs, is less mass. Racing valves also have less mass, often thinner stems, which are sometimes undercut behind the valve head for increased flow. The primary advantage of reduced mass is the ability to use a more aggressive camshaft (if the car is in a competitive class where cam profile is unrestricted, cars use very aggressive camshafts. Even when the cam profiles are restricted (there are many max lift classes) the ramp are severe. And lighter components allow for greater engine speeds. If that isn't you, you probably won't benefit from lightweight components.

Net: the cam manufacturer can tell you what sort of valve train components are needed with each of their cams given the engine speed range it will be operating in. They have equipment that determined had was needed to make their camshaft work. They can also tell you what they expect the lifetime to be. Net recommendation: call the cam builder, or if an OEM cam, ask the retainer's manufacturer.

In this case it is pretty critical. A dropped valve can hand grenade an engine. The valve bangs against the piston until the head breaks off and the piston cranks, meanwhile bits if piston travel through the engine. When the piston goes the rod often goes through the block.

Note that Honda engines and especially the F20/F22c are known for their high-performance design. They have a roller camshaft which can be much more aggressive than the flat tappet cams in a VR38DETT or 2JZ-GTE. The valves are big with thin stems. The piston pins are a small diameter as are the rod journals (Honda rod journals are used in many V8 racing engines).

What are you smoking and what does a rod journal, piston pin or ANYTHING on the bottom end have to do with with the OP's question? I get you wanna sound smart, but Jesus Christ. Chill.

When you drop a valve it hammers the piston, which after breaking up lets the rod go through the side of the block. The Op is looking at a previously tracked S2000, which doesn't have the original engine, and has at least some non-OEM internal components.

The key is that the retainer is only one of several pieces that can fail with catastrophic results but shouldn't in normal street or light track use.

I don't smoke.

Many used vehicles have latent problems, sometimes reported, sometimes unknown.

There are several threads on the subject. This is one: https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-mo...stion-3259839/ This another: https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un...000rpm-142965/

Well in that case, you should.

:dizstars:

I am with David on this one. I think the safest plan of attack is going to be a thorough cleaning of your garage, degreasing the car from top to bottom before pulling in, and once in make sure you close off all entrances using plastic dividers. Once you get the engine entirely out, which you definitely will need to do, tear it down, make a very detailed parts list, contact the manufacturers of each individual component, demand the metallurgy findings for each component, and if they don't have them, send each component out to a respected member in the field of metallurgy. Before you do that make sure you vet the people you are sending the parts to in order to verify their training and experience. That's what I would suggest starting with. If you need more info on the steps after I can chime back in.

:spitcoffee:

Or we can all just keep things in perspective instead of calling the internet/s2ki police and realize that there is helpful feedback and then there is clear overwhelming information for the sake of self indulgence, half of which doesn't even relate to the immediate issue at hand, so expect some rolling eyes and goofy feedback (this is also an entertainment website) If the posters who regularly do this don't like it, Id suggest to them to try sweetening up the point or expect some less then favorable comments. There are some knowledgeable people in here, but some of them would better serve themselves and the people they are trying to help by staying on track and your track record in time will prove how smart you are at troubleshooting - IF that's the motive in providing a full page history lesson response to a one sentence question.

you clearly missed the hell in a cell meme troll...it's okay. lol

Guess so :nerd:

oops, i made this post while.. drunk. thats normally when i find time to play online lol...

update: the engine is out and i have all the parts labeled and placed according to size. whats the next step?



lol, seriously.. let me ask a more direct question:

1: can i just pull the valve cover and look to see if they are too sunk? or do i actually need to put air in the cyl, pull the cams etc to see?

2: does having JUST titanium retainers give me any RPM safety advantage over stock AP2 retainers and keepers? hitting rev limiter, miss shifts, etc?

thanks!

1. Yes you can see the valve stems and top of keepers with just a valve cover removal. The issue is Ti are brittle, and my fear would unlike OEM is when they fail they fail entirely. I also dont know without looking at yours what they should look like since they are no longer oem.

2.No, Ti is lighter than steel, so its a performance upgrade not a reliability one. Nothing beats the reliability of OEM ap2 retainers. If you are running after market more aggressive lift cams then you are likely running aftermarket heavier dual valve spring and the corresponding aftermarket Ti retainers are paired to work with those. If your not running aftermarket cams then I highly suggest you return back to stock valve springs/retainers and keepers.

Just curious for Ti users here, at what point did you see your titanium retainers sink/have problems?

thanks !!!

You can't properly answer #1 without knowing what grade the Ti is. In my experience with Ti valves and retainers. They don't just straight up fail from fatigue without deformation. Ti is generally softer than the steel parts they replace there for they will deform before they break, thus, when disassembling the keepers from the valves/retainers it will bind up if there is deformation.


Just to clarify that #2. Running ti retainers by themselves does not give a safety margin, the increased safety margin comes from the higher spring rate of the valve springs.

Perfect, thanks