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When to change titanium retainers?

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When to change titanium retainers?

 
Old 07-03-2019, 07:31 PM
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Default When to change titanium retainers?

Hey, bought my s2k with titanium retainers. I know the car used to be tracked because i can see where a roll cage was installed. Engine doesn't match VIN. how do i know when they need replaced? I know they wear out fast and its not that hard to change them.....
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Old 07-04-2019, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by yamaha6611 View Post
Hey, bought my s2k with titanium retainers. I know the car used to be tracked because i can see where a roll cage was installed. Engine doesn't match VIN. how do i know when they need replaced? I know they wear out fast and its not that hard to change them.....
I usually leave them be until the valves/keepers show a little sign of sinking. As in, when you put a spring compressor on, if it doesn't start compressing the spring without tapping the top with a hammer, it's sinking....if that makes any sense.

Requiring a little tap to free up the keepers from the retainer is fine, but when it starts requiring a good bit of force, that's when I service the entire valvetrain.

Last edited by Charper732; 07-04-2019 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:53 AM
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Id just swap them out now with oem/ap2 for my own peace of mind.
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Old 07-09-2019, 12:27 AM
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You are worried about the retainers and not the valves or valve springs. All are wear items in a stressed environment.

The reason for Ti retainers and beehive springs, and a secondary advantage of conical springs, is less mass. Racing valves also have less mass, often thinner stems, which are sometimes undercut behind the valve head for increased flow. The primary advantage of reduced mass is the ability to use a more aggressive camshaft (if the car is in a competitive class where cam profile is unrestricted, cars use very aggressive camshafts. Even when the cam profiles are restricted (there are many max lift classes) the ramp are severe. And lighter components allow for greater engine speeds. If that isn't you, you probably won't benefit from lightweight components.

Net: the cam manufacturer can tell you what sort of valve train components are needed with each of their cams given the engine speed range it will be operating in. They have equipment that determined had was needed to make their camshaft work. They can also tell you what they expect the lifetime to be. Net recommendation: call the cam builder, or if an OEM cam, ask the retainer's manufacturer.

In this case it is pretty critical. A dropped valve can hand grenade an engine. The valve bangs against the piston until the head breaks off and the piston cranks, meanwhile bits if piston travel through the engine. When the piston goes the rod often goes through the block.

Note that Honda engines and especially the F20/F22c are known for their high-performance design. They have a roller camshaft which can be much more aggressive than the flat tappet cams in a VR38DETT or 2JZ-GTE. The valves are big with thin stems. The piston pins are a small diameter as are the rod journals (Honda rod journals are used in many V8 racing engines).
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Old 07-09-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
You are worried about the retainers and not the valves or valve springs. All are wear items in a stressed environment.

The reason for Ti retainers and beehive springs, and a secondary advantage of conical springs, is less mass. Racing valves also have less mass, often thinner stems, which are sometimes undercut behind the valve head for increased flow. The primary advantage of reduced mass is the ability to use a more aggressive camshaft (if the car is in a competitive class where cam profile is unrestricted, cars use very aggressive camshafts. Even when the cam profiles are restricted (there are many max lift classes) the ramp are severe. And lighter components allow for greater engine speeds. If that isn't you, you probably won't benefit from lightweight components.

Net: the cam manufacturer can tell you what sort of valve train components are needed with each of their cams given the engine speed range it will be operating in. They have equipment that determined had was needed to make their camshaft work. They can also tell you what they expect the lifetime to be. Net recommendation: call the cam builder, or if an OEM cam, ask the retainer's manufacturer.

In this case it is pretty critical. A dropped valve can hand grenade an engine. The valve bangs against the piston until the head breaks off and the piston cranks, meanwhile bits if piston travel through the engine. When the piston goes the rod often goes through the block.

Note that Honda engines and especially the F20/F22c are known for their high-performance design. They have a roller camshaft which can be much more aggressive than the flat tappet cams in a VR38DETT or 2JZ-GTE. The valves are big with thin stems. The piston pins are a small diameter as are the rod journals (Honda rod journals are used in many V8 racing engines).
What are you smoking and what does a rod journal, piston pin or ANYTHING on the bottom end have to do with with the OP's question? I get you wanna sound smart, but Jesus Christ. Chill.
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Old 07-09-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Charper732 View Post
What are you smoking and what does a rod journal, piston pin or ANYTHING on the bottom end have to do with with the OP's question? I get you wanna sound smart, but Jesus Christ. Chill.
When you drop a valve it hammers the piston, which after breaking up lets the rod go through the side of the block. The Op is looking at a previously tracked S2000, which doesn't have the original engine, and has at least some non-OEM internal components.

The key is that the retainer is only one of several pieces that can fail with catastrophic results but shouldn't in normal street or light track use.

I don't smoke.

Many used vehicles have latent problems, sometimes reported, sometimes unknown.

There are several threads on the subject. This is one: https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-mo...stion-3259839/ This another: https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-un...000rpm-142965/
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post

I don't smoke.

Well in that case, you should.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
You are worried about the retainers and not the valves or valve springs. All are wear items in a stressed environment.

The reason for Ti retainers and beehive springs, and a secondary advantage of conical springs, is less mass. Racing valves also have less mass, often thinner stems, which are sometimes undercut behind the valve head for increased flow. The primary advantage of reduced mass is the ability to use a more aggressive camshaft (if the car is in a competitive class where cam profile is unrestricted, cars use very aggressive camshafts. Even when the cam profiles are restricted (there are many max lift classes) the ramp are severe. And lighter components allow for greater engine speeds. If that isn't you, you probably won't benefit from lightweight components.

Net: the cam manufacturer can tell you what sort of valve train components are needed with each of their cams given the engine speed range it will be operating in. They have equipment that determined had was needed to make their camshaft work. They can also tell you what they expect the lifetime to be. Net recommendation: call the cam builder, or if an OEM cam, ask the retainer's manufacturer.

In this case it is pretty critical. A dropped valve can hand grenade an engine. The valve bangs against the piston until the head breaks off and the piston cranks, meanwhile bits if piston travel through the engine. When the piston goes the rod often goes through the block.

Note that Honda engines and especially the F20/F22c are known for their high-performance design. They have a roller camshaft which can be much more aggressive than the flat tappet cams in a VR38DETT or 2JZ-GTE. The valves are big with thin stems. The piston pins are a small diameter as are the rod journals (Honda rod journals are used in many V8 racing engines).
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
You are worried about the retainers and not the valves or valve springs. All are wear items in a stressed environment.

The reason for Ti retainers and beehive springs, and a secondary advantage of conical springs, is less mass. Racing valves also have less mass, often thinner stems, which are sometimes undercut behind the valve head for increased flow. The primary advantage of reduced mass is the ability to use a more aggressive camshaft (if the car is in a competitive class where cam profile is unrestricted, cars use very aggressive camshafts. Even when the cam profiles are restricted (there are many max lift classes) the ramp are severe. And lighter components allow for greater engine speeds. If that isn't you, you probably won't benefit from lightweight components.

Net: the cam manufacturer can tell you what sort of valve train components are needed with each of their cams given the engine speed range it will be operating in. They have equipment that determined had was needed to make their camshaft work. They can also tell you what they expect the lifetime to be. Net recommendation: call the cam builder, or if an OEM cam, ask the retainer's manufacturer.

In this case it is pretty critical. A dropped valve can hand grenade an engine. The valve bangs against the piston until the head breaks off and the piston cranks, meanwhile bits if piston travel through the engine. When the piston goes the rod often goes through the block.

Note that Honda engines and especially the F20/F22c are known for their high-performance design. They have a roller camshaft which can be much more aggressive than the flat tappet cams in a VR38DETT or 2JZ-GTE. The valves are big with thin stems. The piston pins are a small diameter as are the rod journals (Honda rod journals are used in many V8 racing engines).
Originally Posted by Charper732 View Post
What are you smoking and what does a rod journal, piston pin or ANYTHING on the bottom end have to do with with the OP's question? I get you wanna sound smart, but Jesus Christ. Chill.
I am with David on this one. I think the safest plan of attack is going to be a thorough cleaning of your garage, degreasing the car from top to bottom before pulling in, and once in make sure you close off all entrances using plastic dividers. Once you get the engine entirely out, which you definitely will need to do, tear it down, make a very detailed parts list, contact the manufacturers of each individual component, demand the metallurgy findings for each component, and if they don't have them, send each component out to a respected member in the field of metallurgy. Before you do that make sure you vet the people you are sending the parts to in order to verify their training and experience. That's what I would suggest starting with. If you need more info on the steps after I can chime back in.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hatrickstu View Post
I am with David on this one. I think the safest plan of attack is going to be a thorough cleaning of your garage, degreasing the car from top to bottom before pulling in, and once in make sure you close off all entrances using plastic dividers. Once you get the engine entirely out, which you definitely will need to do, tear it down, make a very detailed parts list, contact the manufacturers of each individual component, demand the metallurgy findings for each component, and if they don't have them, send each component out to a respected member in the field of metallurgy. Before you do that make sure you vet the people you are sending the parts to in order to verify their training and experience. That's what I would suggest starting with. If you need more info on the steps after I can chime back in.
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