^I'm with this guy regarding the benefits of CC.

there's no chance anyone is going to manually maintain a constant speed. If they are, they are paying WAY too much attention to that one singular aspect (maintenance of speed).

In a car that revs to 4K at 80mph, even a small movement of your foot will result in a quite massive fall in speed from a high amount of engine drag...or a big increase in speed due to the engine being in its "torque zone".

Its like trying to feather speed in a very low gear. Its not easy.

 

Maintaining consistent speed was something they used to teach in drivers ed and our teacher would call us out on it. Most people I knew (minus one friend of mine who seemed to have some depth persception challenges and noted he could not do it as well as the rest of us could) had no issue learning this. I have no more issue doing so in the S2k than any other car I have and am not doing it by paying too much attention to one aspect of driving. Your brain is 100% capable of doing this with practice (Aka driving without CC) just like it is very good at judging stopping distances whether walking, running, on a bike or a car. The more people depend on a nanny (like CC) then the less they train their brain to do it. When I started driving, most of us younguns had old cars with non existant or non working CC. Today, most cars come with it, people use it all the time and thus, never train themselves to do the same job without it. But it certainly is not impossible or even close to impossible for most people to do. It is like any other skill and unless you use it you lose it. That does not mean you cant do it.

 

Ok. Get on the open highway. Record your speed while you drive as you NORMALLY would.

I guarantee at least a +/-5mph fluctuation in a relatively short distance (usually in well under 1 mile of cruising).

Maintaining distance using frame of reference is not the same as keeping a constant speed.

Non-radar guided cruise only does the latter. Humans are notoriously bad at the latter. That's why CC exists.

Its not possible to keep a constant speed without fluctuating accelerator position to correct for wind, hills, and turns....or...hell, even AC drag on the engine.

Virtually nobody can maintain a constant speed on an open highway.

That's why when you drive with CC...you pass someone who is going slower...and see her/him pass you 20 seconds later.....and then you pass them again....and see them pass you over and over until you go insane.

You can maintain a constant speed if you concentrate (and consistently monitor the speedo) on doing so like some sort of crazy person would.
But it takes a lot of concentration away from actually driving. And why tf would you want to do this for several hours on an open highway? Its also reactionary. The CC reacts faster than you do to engine load and speed fluctuations.

 

do you know what is the size of OEM rear sway bar?

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/S2000/comme...y_bar_options/

 

This cc stuff is a little of topic

 

Shit, you're right on that.
Can we discuss its tangential relation to snap oversteer.

 

Do some consider the handling of the AP1 cars to be playful specifically because of the increased tendency for snap oversteer / bump steer or rather in spite of these qualities?

 

In spite of bumpsteer issues. Would be *more* playful and toss/catchable without the rear toe shenanigans.

 

I've had an 03 and an 06 that I've autocrossed a bit. I definitely thought the AP1 was more "playful" though I think I finally got my AP2 to rotate similarly under throttle. The AP1's rear roll stiffness was noticeably higher, contributing to it being more playful. I can't comment how much is attributed to increased rear roll stiffness versus the toe change. I've never had an AP1 with same spring rates as the AP2 or vice versa. Presumably, both spring rate and dynamic toe play a role in the handling differences. The one thing I've noticed, that I think is highly attributed to the toe change, is that the AP2 is less nervous under braking. The AP1 transitioned quicker and was more adjustable on the limit, IMO, mostly because of the stiffer springs.

To the point of the original post... For a street car, I don't think the toe changes are very consequential. Go out, get a good alignment, and be happy. There are plenty of threads on AP1 alignments and it has been beaten to death. I won't beat that horse here. I do not believe that many, if any, wrecks on the street due to "snap oversteer" and "dynamic toe change" would have been saved had the car been equipped with one of the toe-kits. Driver error accounts for 99.999% of them. The things that caused my AP1 to spin would also cause my AP2 to spin 99% of the time. Most driver errors are pretty egregious and the S2k is pretty sensitive to them, regardless of AP1 or AP2. Lifting off the throttle while turning in quickly will cause the car to spin regardless of AP1 or AP2. There is a noticeable difference between the two at the limit but most people who wrecked were going to wreck anyways. I'd guess that most of them would "snap-oversteer" just the same in a camry, had they entered the turn fast enough and lifted the throttle aggressively while turning in.

I think that the aftermarket toe kits should be used only with the understanding that they are not an OEM part and have not been subject to the extensive testing and quality control that OEM parts are subject to. Therefore, you should be inspecting them and replacing them accordingly. I do not think they fit the average person's needs on a street car and would argue that they introduce more risk than they mitigate. There are a few threads and accounts of them breaking. The mode of failure would be pretty ugly on a public road. I'm glad they're offered and I think they have a purpose on track cars but not street cars. If you feel the need to address the toe change, I am on the side of swapping in the AP2 rear components. As of now, they are probably sourced pretty easily and on the cheap. I'd imagine that in the next few years, they become much harder to get as less and less of these cars are being parted out. With the OEM AP2 components, you remove most of the dynamic rear toe change conditions while using highly tested, reliable parts, that should not fail under normal circumstances.