I've driven both. The AP2 felt so much quicker on the street that I was sure it would be a killer on the track, but it turns out that despite the gearing, the lower redline really takes its toll -- you end up in 5th through all of the fast and medium-fast turns, and it's just not as quick as an AP1 in 4th. IOW, I think it's faster through the slow turns, and slower through the fast ones; but as we know, Rule #1 in racing is to go faster through the fast sections, not the slow sections.

On the other hand, the AP1's twitchiness (rear bumpsteer) can really bite you. It's a very real, and at times very dangerous, handling issue. If I were getting an AP1 now, my first mod would be the GFL bumpsteer kit (and no, I'm not a GFL shill! ).

My overall preference? For the track, I'd get an '02-'03 car, and invest in the bumpsteer kit. If you're mostly concerned with stock-class autox, then definitely get an AP2.

 

The steering ratio is reduced because of the AP2's OEM wheel/tire combo. It's every bit as direct. Lots of tuned AP1's have the AP2's rear subframe in Japan. The AP2 is a friendlier street car, the AP1 has a little more potential on the track (with some modification) the JDM '04-05 S2000 features the 9K engine, but the AP2's chassis refinements.

 

Hey Bryan,

Yeah this has been covered before, but at least I enjoy the discussion much more on the R&C board where people actually have experience driving at the limit against the clock rather than just talking about it.

I suggest you drive both. There are differences both good and bad, but they are much smaller than sometimes made out on this board. Personally having driven both back to back I could not believe what all the fuss was about, the AP2 still feels more like an S2000 than it does like any other car by a long way.

There are just a couple things I'd point out:

-The quick steering ratio is not the only thing that makes the AP1 so responsive. The AP2 has a 14.9:1 rack but turns in much better than other cars with the same ratio, because it has a stiff chassis, short wheelbase etc. In my back to back street drive both me and the AP1 owner couldn't really tell the difference, maybe in a series of slow autox maneuvers you might. The AP2 steering is slightly more weighty which I prefer.

-For stock class autox, these cars should be close. I believe the AP2 has a suspension and wheel tire advantage that is partly offset by inferior gearing for national style courses.

-It is easier to get an AP2 95% setup for stock- front bar, tires and alignment and you are done. With the AP1 you have to do more work to kill inside wheelspin due to the fatter rear bar. I also think the slightly softer rear end of the AP2 puts power down better and makes the car rotate more progressively.

-The gearing issue is not so simple. The AP2 torque and gearing are better for slow local courses, the AP1 gearing and higher redline are better for faster national style courses with a speed profile in the 40-65mph range. The AP2 has more torque but the AP1 has an extra 1000rpm in VTEC. The gearing is the only thing about the AP2 that is worse for stock class autox IMHO. For slow courses on small lots no contest, AP2 for the win.

Personally, with the ever increasing grip of DOT R tires, I feel the wheelspin issue will get worse and worse which will always tip the balance to the AP2. As drivers cars for the street or track, both are excellent. You just have to try them to see which you like. Understand that all opinions you read here are biased (even mine). A lot of the people who claim the AP2 is "watered down" don't have the kind of motorsports experience that you do.

Peter

PS: Didn't you just get a car for stock class autox?

 

I did, and I still plan to run that car for the forseeable future. Solo2 competitiveness is just one of many factors influencing my S2000 decision. If ES and CS merge in the next couple of years, it'd be nice to have a backup competitive car.

You said it better than I did, but that is exactly why I posted here. I've seen plenty of threads elsewhere that are full of talk and no substance.

The past few days I kept coming back here to S2ki intending to respond to this thread, instead getting sidetracked by a number of other threads. I've learned a lot but it takes a while to separate the wheat from the chaff in some of these threads.

I agree driving both is the best way to decide which is best for me. All my friends locally have AP1s. Know anyone who would entertain a co-drive this Sunday? I'll pay their entry fee.

From what I gather the AP2 has similar gearing to my ES car, which seems woefully short for 240hp. Even with my 130hp I find myself shifting between 2nd and 3rd often - sometimes several times per run.

If/when I get an S2000 it will be my primary track car as well, so that is something I need to consider. Did I read somewhere that the AP2 has slightly larger brakes?

No one has mentioned it as an issue so I take it the 2.2 has enough torque below VTEC to not fall on its face after every shift?

Hmm, that's an interesting observation. I would think it would be the other way around (stiffer rear would mean it takes less effort for the back end to slide, and thus it'd slide in a more relaxed fashion, whereas a soft rear would grip and grip unless it's really coerced). Although I agree about putting the power down better (hopefully not so well that the front end loses grip ).

I may be wrong but I am imagining the S2000 suspension changes to be similar to what Toyota did to the MK1 MR2. The original '85 with the small rear sway bar is the most fun in stock form. It'll slide the rear end easily, but predictably and subtly. Really a joy to toss around. In '87 the rear sway bar was deleted and the suspension goemetry changed for more stability. I think it's ultimately faster but sometimes too stable - the rear end has a death grip on the pavement unless you really know how to work around it, so the front is more likely to wash out. I'm not sure which I prefer actually. I believe the '87 suspension is faster but every time I drive an 85-86 it puts a bigger smile on my face.

One of the simple, magical fun parts of the AP1 is how it tightens the nose on the power. I love that. Has the AP2 suspension been changed enough so that it now tracks a consistent line on the power?

If I got an AP2 I'd run it in SM2 locally so I'd probably buy an extra slave cylinder and do the valve delete. Could easily swap back to the stock one if I used the car for stock class. I like to earn my results, so no hidden mods for me. I'd love to get rid of the foglights on my ES car but the bumper cover is cut for them so I feel I should have a net increase in weight up there, so they stay.

Anyone have experience launching the AP2 with the clutch slippage valve?

Interestingly, one of the three AP1s I've driven felt noticeably slower than the other two. I wonder how consistent the F2xCs are. This 'slow' car looked to be in excellent shape all around, and made all the right noises. The speed just wasn't there quite so much.

The one I drove on the track was an '02, and I couldn't find any hint of lift-off oversteer. Rather, it had lift off understeer IMO. The awesome rotation came only from being on the throttle... even feeding it in gently in the lower gears. I would have liked the nose to tuck in if I lifted quickly off the gas, but maybe that isn't a trait of front-engined cars (MR2s are notorious for this, and I like it).

You can chuck anything sideways if you try hard enough. I'm sure the AP2 can rotate but I really want to know how it behaves at all points in the slide, and how easily it'll do it. Good in-car video would really help for this.

John, unfortunately I couldn't make it to Marina last weekend. I would have loved to go for a ride. Will you be at Oakland this Sunday?

 

An AP2 can be made to be any degree of loose you want it to be with nothing more than an alignment and a new set of tires. The cars are delivered with almost no negative camber in front, but are capable of -1.5 to -2 degrees. Also keep in mind the AP2 has the same extremely rear biased tire stagger that the AP1 did. While the OEM AP1 tires were nominally 205/225, they were in reality equivalent to 195/245 in contact patch. The AP2 tires are labeled 215/245, but in reality are also 195/245. I've seen photos of both side by side, they are almost exactly the same.

What this means is that with a proper alignment and even a slightly different set of street tires, the balance can change a lot. Again, you have to drive it to find out what you like.

The AP1 and AP2 have the same size brakes.

Peter

 

Oddly enough I had no problems launching the car with wheelspin, but shifting up into 2nd or 3rd can cause the clutch to slip. I just need more practice, I think.

I'll be at Oakland -- first run group (ugh). First run is preferred for the ride-along.

 

Hijack:
Since I'm in japan right now (get back saturday am) and I'm missing the last honda cup race I'm thinking about going up to oakland for the day to get my 3 runs of missing fender glory. Not sure I want to bother with the tow, but it might be fun.

Can I run a double driver as myself to get 6 runs?

 

One possibility - The 00-01 ECM's did not make as much power as the 02-03 ECM on the AP1.

I remember someone here did some back-to-back dyno runs with the two ECM's (but I can't find it with the search function), and found the difference to be about 5 hp. (I seem to remember 197 with the 00-01 ECM and 202 with the 02-03 ECM).

 

Isn't 5 HP sort of "in the noise?" I thought most dyno results were only accurate within +/- 5 HP anyway, and even the butt dyno is hard pressed to feel 5 HP.

 

Plus, both the fastest and slowest feeling S2000s I've driven were 2001s.

krazik, I think there will be time for fun runs this weekend unless attendance goes way up from last week.