Brake Setup Advice please
 

Hi All!
After quite some research on this section of the forum i couldnt quite get an answer to my brake setup problem.
So after some years tracking the car with stock calipers/PMU Scr-PRO rotors and DS2500 pads i got a good deal on a set of spoon calipers and installed them. Here the problem starts. Love how the car brakes now, pretty happy with it, but the wear on components is outrageous. As a comparison the first set of PMU Rotos lasted about 5 years of trackdays (3/4 events a year) and the Ds2500 usually lasted 3 events at least. On the rear all stock with ds2500 and also 3/4 events before need new ones. Now with the Spoon calipers the car feels perfect when braking, but used HC800 and lasted one event (completly destroyed them) changed to CR´s and lasted 2 events and cracked a rotor (that had only 3 events). I don´t have any kind of ducting ot cooling (yes i know...stupid).
So my question would be what to do next to keep material lasting longer as i don´t have the funds to replace rotors and pads with this kind of frequency.
- go with ballade spacers and use 330mm rotors keeping the spoons? pads are the same, rotors are bigger so better heat dissipation and replacing rotors is cheaper then the PMU
- sell the spoons and get some stoptech bbk(or other brand)? Higher money at front but probably rotors and pads will last quite longer?

Ducting i will add for sure. just not sure what kind of setup? (apr/wasp/custom/just a duct with oem dust shield)

Quite lost at the moment on what to do. Any advice would be great
thank you

Ducting is the most cost effective thing you can do and a good idea regardless of what brake setup you run. I'd start with that before I threw more parts at it.

I initially added a flange to the OEM shield as you can see in the picture. But it's hard to get the hose to flex the amount needed when the wheel turns lock to lock. Eventually I removed the shield and mounted the hose to piece of aluminum stock that I attached to the shock bolt through the LCA. That takes away the need for the hose to move when steering and it works much better. Sorry I don't have a picture handy to share but it really simplifies things.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...2daec5c03d.jpg

I think on a race car, the best spot really for ducts is the remove the faux vents and run the hose from that. Are you at stock power levels? The big issue the car has is rear temps, which can cause the fronts to have to compensate when the rear fades. Ducting will help a lot, and that may be all you need to resolve your issue. Have not checked what the actual cost would be to ship them here, but for the fronts Honed Developments makes and air guide that looks nice and should work as well as running a hose would.

Yes ducting is the next step but i also need to decide on the rotors since i have one cracked. And those rotors are pretty expensive! So i´m struggling to decide on keeping the same setup or change it, even if with ducting the problem gets better.

Rear temps makes sense as the fronts will need to compensate. And that would be addressed with ducting but also with buying the ballade kit to run 330 on the back also.
As for power i have a stroked f20c (to f22) so a bit more power but nothing major as boost would give.

Here is a picture of the last trackday. As you can see the rears are pretty lighted up so yes..the fronts are having hard times
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.s2k...be66a4d6db.jpg

two-piece vented front and rear will fix your problems.

Urge (through girodisc) makes both. the two-piece option dissipates heat much better than the OEM 1-piece. They work with the OEM calipers, front and rear, or the spoon calipers, front.

It's $1500 total ($750 front and $750 rear). If you can only afford to do one, do the front first.

Flow Rear Brake Rotors | URGE designs

Also, as the others have stated, ducting in addition to the above modifications will help as well.

Avoid the ballade kits - they will shift your brake bias around. My opinion is that many of their parts are not well researched with track development and lap times or documented longevity to prove the effectiveness of their modifications.

Additional edit:

This guy is running the exact setup i'm recommending (spoon caliper + F/R 2-piece vented rotors from Urge).
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/automoti...n-asm-1141336/

Proven to be effective.

My front PMU rotores are two piece also. So maybe upgrading the rears would help a lot with the front wear?

Possibly. Many people have reported benefits of doing that, I can't speak from experience though.


My setup is ST40 front with Urge rears. I went ST40 fronts before upgrading to Urge rears. They are awesome. I tracked on them for 3 years with solid rear rotors, and I felt no particular need to upgrade the rears other than wanting to do it when the option became available.

I previously used P-mu, carbotech, and hawk pads. I have switched away from P-mu pads. The HC800+ was a pretty decent hybrid street/track pad that worked well with the ST40 but was still a compromise. I read and saw enough unfavorable results with CRs that I never tried them.

I am now on raybestos ST-43 pads all around. A local track friend with the ST40 kit got 80+ track days on his rotors and around 20+ days on a set of pads. I'm experiencing the same wear rate on pads as well.

Ultimately, the problem with the spoon kit is that it's using the stock pads, which are tiny and thin. From a time attack stand point, they're fine and good on weight. Where longevity and consumable wear is concerned, I'd pick a true BBK.

Well...this post clarifies quite a lot for me! With that kind of durability from the st40´s i think we have a winner. I prefer to put some money first to save later so i think i will go with the st40 when i sell my spoons. I do use my car for time attack, but only for fun and not true competition so i prefer longevity over that tiny weight saving that could give that extra milisecond.
So as for changing the rears do you consider it to be essential ? 750dollars for a pair of rotors is also quite some money

Save the money and do a true front BBK first. It will yield the most beneficial results. Re-evaluate afterwards if you still want/need the rear. It rounds out the braking package but is nowhere near as crucial as the front.

Keep in mind that replacement rings for the ST40 are anywhere from $476 to $600 for a set of 2 (~$238-$300 each) - (for those of you wondering, the low price, yes, I just picked up a set for that price last month - PM for details). You should get around 80-100 track days out of them. Replace when the slots disappear and your rotors look like blanks. The overall financial math still says it's worth it. You should be able to get an ST40 328x28mm kit for ~$1600, and residual used market value is around $1000.

I am also still on my original ST40 rings, from 2013. I anticipate getting at least another 2 years (16-20 track days) out of them.

+1 for the URGE rear vented rotors. With ducting I think you'll find you will have the temps under control. I'd do those before I upgraded the fronts.

Also, I too run the ST43 pads. They are super durable and I have had no issues with fade. Modulation is not as good as with the DTC60 I ran before but the Hawks are really excellent so set the bar high. And the ST43 are easy on rotors and the dust just washes off.

math is quite simple. replacement rings for stoptechs=600 for 80 trackdays... SCR PRO rings=500 for 3 trackdays...easy math lol

Problem with ST43 pads is i can´t find them in europe..and importing is always a mess with waiting times and import duty

" You should get around 80-100 track days out of them"!!!!!!!

Me and a buddy of mines both have the Stoptech Trophy kit and the front rotors lasted us about 12-13 days until they cracked(Winmax W6 pads F+R). Which I'm ok with because the stopping power is great and still last triple more then what it use to be. We both don't running any cooling.

Your wear rate seems a bit out of the norm. I'm on the ST40 kit and have about 10 track days with the stoptech street pads and have only worn the pads down about halfway with no measureable wear on the rotors. I do have brake ducts. Tracks down in SoCal, so not the hardest on brakes.

When you say cracked do you mean to edge, or just the normal microcracking? That is... unusual...

Cracked as in to the edge with about a 1/5th of an inch gap. Tracks were all bay area tracks. Laguna, Thunderhill (5mile,east,west), Sonoma. Pads are at 30%-40% remaining.

Odd, I have 33 days/113 sessions on mine. Mine are used in TT so sessions are 15 min vs typical 20-25 min HPDE sessions but 10-12 days is way low. Mine are cooled and I run ST47 pads.

I have the Urge/Girodisc vented front and rears and they are fine for me (I wouldn't consider myself "fast" though). Front's have some micro-cracking after 10 days (not bad though) and rears are still good. Will add ducting this season to see if I can extend my front pad life a little. If I had to do it over again, I'd go with the Urge rear rotors again and spend the incremental $800 more for a true BBK in the front.

This is the path I followed. I found the Girodisc in front to last just a bit longer in a 30 min session before mild fade set in, even with ducting, vs. Centric blanks. The improvement was small, perhaps just something I was imagining as I didn't have an objective way to measure. I eventually went with the SBG Wilwood BBK. This significantly changed the way I brake. I now can brake as hard as tire grip allows. Before I had to adjust braking points based on how much fade (heat) had built up in the session.

This may be helpful: Wilwood Air Ducting for Short Track Stock Car Racing https://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds254.pdf

Dunno. In my head this is already normal to me lol. No complaints at all. I'm happy that the rotors last as long as they do. I also run the Urge rears and they have lasted about 13 days so far but the little micro cracks are not so micro anymore and are getting quite close to the edge so I'm guessing I have another 3-4 days on them. Just received replacement rings last week for when they do decide to crack.

Since you are running competitive events on Hoosier A7 tires with close to stock power levels and are a pretty fast driver, wouldn't you use less braking than most of the others with elevated power levels, less sticky tires, and in non-competitive/less-competitive events?

Yes. Shorter more abrupt braking versus longer more gradual braking which is what I see most DE drivers doing.

I was thinking more that you are braking less. For example, based on your tires and setup, you could be exiting a corner on a 2000ft straight at 84mph, while a car on more common track day tires may exit at 80mph. Let's assume they have engine mods that lets their car accelerate at 2mph/sec while you accelerate at 1.5mph/sec. At the end of the straight, they are going 109mph, you are at 105mph. Actual time on the straight is about the same (14.4 sec). Then they brake to 60mph, but since you carry more speed into the turn you brake to 70mph (the tires and rules that let you be more aggressive). Their brakes would have to absorb about 1/3rd more energy than yours.

Cool-down procedure is really important as you get into higher rotor and caliper temps (which will almost certainly come hand-in-hand with more aggressive pads). If you're coming off track on a hot lap and parking the car, you're going to crack rotors. I try to do a full cool-down lap (fast as possible with minimum braking) and then circle the paddock or access roads for a full 5 minutes before stopping, and then I still push the car forward after a few minutes of sitting to expose the hot part of the rotor under the caliper. I'm usually still circling the paddock while everyone else is looking at their video. My stock sized rotors have lasted a lot longer as I got more and more anal about cool-down.

I do pretty much the same thing but not as much time cooling in the pits. I usually do one cool down lap and one lap around pits. Maybe i'll try 2 laps around pits LOL

It would be interesting if you folks could find any authoritative source on driving around the paddock. I can't imagine any race organizer having cars randomly driving around a crowded paddock with people moving and cars gridding. Dedicated race cars would not be driving around access roads.

I would have thought they require the cars to slow down after they wave the flag ending the session. that is the cool-off lap. Most of the heat should be gone at that point.

It sounds like the issue is that your rotor mass and brake cooling are marginal for your tires, wt/hp, aero, driving style, and track layout. Addressing that is probably the better solution.

When I drive around the pits it at anywhere from 5-10mph so no danger to anyone walking/roaming around. The tracks here have plenty of space to drive around in the pits.
One cool down lap is still sometimes not enough. I've measured my rotor temps still at 450+ after a full cooldown lap.
I really don't think I have an issue with the brakes at all. I'm on A052's, bolt on power, no wing and yes I think i do have a aggressive driving style. The brakes are providing the stopping power I need with perfectly even pad wear. They last 3-4x's stock rotors. I'm a happy camper. :LOL:

I found some PCA events will throw the checkered flag giving me about 1/4 lap to cool down. I expect they do this to maximize time on the track, but when I had the stock rotors it was not possible to cool them enough without further driving in the pits. But I agree with DavidNJ's point that this is not a good solution, and certainly not scalable if many were to do it. Given how protective many Porsche owners are of their cars, I was surprised at this, but I've experienced it at events in Colorado and Utah, so it's not an isolated thing.

BTW, not trying to rail on the PCA guys - they run first class events with lots of safe track time. Just didn't expect it.

Best brake upgrade for s2k = Stoptech ST-40 BBK (includes stainless steel brake lines). I use project mu club racer pads for front and carbotech xp8 in the rear. Never used the ST-43 pad but seems to have good reputation on forums.
My rear setup is the urge rear flow rotors. Very important as well since your rears won't overheat (500+ F) which boils the brake fluid and makes your pedal mushy after 1-2 days of tracking.
I use castrol SRF brake fluid, my opinion it is worth the extra money (I didn't have to rebleed my brakes all season with this fluid since pedal remains rock solid with my setup). I previously used motul RBF 600 and Type 200 but those are inferior if you look at wet boiling temperatures.

With the stoptech BBK you don't even need brake ducting since it dissipates the heat it generates very well. Same applies for urge rear flow rotors, no need for rear ducting. My temperatures were 250-300F in rear with those vented rotors.

This is the best budget setup hands down for firm consistent brakes for multiple track days. Wasted 2 years trying different setups (pads, rotors, fluid, etc.) just get the BBK ($1500 from rockstar garage) and be done with it. Stock calipers will never feel as firm as BBK due to poor design of sliding single piston caliper compared to 4 pot non-sliding calipers.

You will need to get new rims to fit the BBK. I use Tc105n wedsport rims 17x9 which are not too pricey and high quality.

The weakest point in the s2000 is the stock brakes in my opinion. Once you get this changed, your confidence in the car will rise so much since you can count on your brakes and pedal feel is firm as hell.

I agree with this approach to upgrade the front to a BBK and use the URGE rear vented rotors. But I'd add that there are other front BBKs to consider as well. The Stoptech is a safe bet but you pay for the pleasure of having their brand name. The Sakebomb Garage Track Day kit with Brembo calipers and their own rotors is cheaper to buy (currently $1285) and also much cheaper when you have to replace the rotors ($350 set vs. $600). The specs of the two kits similar in terms of rotor size and the Wilwoods are lighter than the ST-40 caliper. Anyone upgrading should consider both options.

As for wheels, the TSW Nurburgring 17x9 +63 clears both BBKs and are reasonably light and rugged so should also be on the consideration list.

Agree. The discussion here is track days, not cars in wheel-to-wheel or time trial competition built to strict rules and running in big fields of competitive cars. An example of the later would be the SCCA runoffs or Solo II nationals.

Rigidity and even force application to the pad (remember the caliper is under heavy twisting forces in addition to the clamping force) are the first priority. Any of the BBK kits, or just pads and the Girodisc rotors with the OEM front calipers should be enough for most track day cars. If the car has lots of power and the driver is cautious in the turns, then rotor, caliper, and ducting would be a bit more complicated. Less power, sticky tires, and a fast driver will put fewer demands on the brakes.

Let me add one more datapoint based on my experience. I had been running with stock calipers and rotors, DTC-60 pads and 2.5" ducting and when I switched to a square 255 tire (RS4), fade began to determine how late I could brake, not tire traction. When I switched to the URGE rear rotors, I also tried a set of Girodisc up front. I never did any back to back testing of Centric vs. Girodisc, but subjectively I found it hard to say that there was a significant improvement in fade. And the improvement I did feel was mostly likely due to the URGE in the rear.

If you want to stay with the stock calipers (perhaps you don't want to change wheels for BBK clearance) AND are cracking rotors, then the Girodisc might be a good solution as the rotors are floating - but it's a pricey one. But otherwise they really don't add much thermal capacity beyond the stock rotors.

When I first started TTing I thought the stock brakes were inadequate. I was running DTC70's and they'd crack rotors all the time.

I'd recommend going to a different compound like the ST43 before spending the cash on a BBK. BBK isn't needed on these cars unless you want to run a super aggressive pad. Stock calipers and rotors work great with ST43s and I'm sure there are other endurace focused compounds that would also work well if the ST43's aren't available where you are.

The pedal feel of the BBK will be superior and that is what I wanted for confidence. Sliding caliper versus non-sliding calipers is the reason. No matter what pad you use pedal feel won't be the same. Also buying girodisc rotors aint cheap and rather spend that money toward a long term solution of BBK

I didn't know about the cheaper option from Sakebomb so 1200$ its a no brainer.

Thank you all for all the advice. Appreciate it.
I think i will have to save up for some URGE rear disks as it seems it´s a proven solution. For the front i will try some cheaper BBK (yellowspeed, same as k sport, d2 etc etc taiwan made) for the moment, as i can find ones locally and i see some guys running them with good feedback and see how it goes.

Before you jump to those cheaper alternatives, make sure you do your research on pad shape and compounds available for the caliper option you're going to run.

The SBG wilwood kit is a decent option, and the cheapest option that I would consider. However, I've been reading that it does shift your brake bias a bit (something the ST40 kit does not do). My advice is to save the money for a known and proven BBK with good pad compound selection, and hold off the URGE rear until later. The best bang for buck return will be the ST40 kit up front.

The Stoptech ST40 BBK shifts the bias forward 5%. The SBG shifts it back 5%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Remember that it is rotor mass and cooling (the vents) that improve fade resistance. Fancy, super stiff calipers won't mean that much on an S2000 with OEM pedals. However, a caliper that isn't stiff enough would be a problem; the OEM cast iron caliper is pretty stiff.

An extremely important point. There are some pad shapes that are widely supported. Some, not so much. I believe the AP calipers and Wilwood are using the Wilwood Superlite pads, widely used in late model stock car racing. The Stoptech has been widely used on a variety of cars for a long time also leading to a wide selection.

Brake bias is also affected mechanical grip, a function of the track surface, tire adhesion, aerodynamic downforce, etc. At 1g braking, maybe 500-500lb transfers to the front. At 1.5g (e.g. Hoosier A7s on a sticky track) it is 800-850lb. a

Most race cars have a bias adjustment in the brake pedal or rear brake line. In those cases, one master cylinder does the front and the other the rear (vs. the cross pattern in the Honda) and bias can also be adjusted by changing master cylinder diameter. Bias is often adjusted during a race as the tires wear and track conditions change. Many adjust the bias by using different pad compounds. When I started racing late model stock cars it was common for the cars to have too much rear bias and use split pad compounds and different diameter master cylinders to compensate.

Urge has a good description of BBK design issues on their webpage: Essex AP Racing Front Brake Kit | URGE designs.