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Brake Setup Advice please

 
Old 12-09-2018, 10:40 AM
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Hi All!
After quite some research on this section of the forum i couldnt quite get an answer to my brake setup problem.
So after some years tracking the car with stock calipers/PMU Scr-PRO rotors and DS2500 pads i got a good deal on a set of spoon calipers and installed them. Here the problem starts. Love how the car brakes now, pretty happy with it, but the wear on components is outrageous. As a comparison the first set of PMU Rotos lasted about 5 years of trackdays (3/4 events a year) and the Ds2500 usually lasted 3 events at least. On the rear all stock with ds2500 and also 3/4 events before need new ones. Now with the Spoon calipers the car feels perfect when braking, but used HC800 and lasted one event (completly destroyed them) changed to CR´s and lasted 2 events and cracked a rotor (that had only 3 events). I don´t have any kind of ducting ot cooling (yes i know...stupid).
So my question would be what to do next to keep material lasting longer as i don´t have the funds to replace rotors and pads with this kind of frequency.
- go with ballade spacers and use 330mm rotors keeping the spoons? pads are the same, rotors are bigger so better heat dissipation and replacing rotors is cheaper then the PMU
- sell the spoons and get some stoptech bbk(or other brand)? Higher money at front but probably rotors and pads will last quite longer?

Ducting i will add for sure. just not sure what kind of setup? (apr/wasp/custom/just a duct with oem dust shield)

Quite lost at the moment on what to do. Any advice would be great
thank you
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:48 PM
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Ducting is the most cost effective thing you can do and a good idea regardless of what brake setup you run. I'd start with that before I threw more parts at it.

I initially added a flange to the OEM shield as you can see in the picture. But it's hard to get the hose to flex the amount needed when the wheel turns lock to lock. Eventually I removed the shield and mounted the hose to piece of aluminum stock that I attached to the shock bolt through the LCA. That takes away the need for the hose to move when steering and it works much better. Sorry I don't have a picture handy to share but it really simplifies things.

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Old 12-09-2018, 01:53 PM
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I think on a race car, the best spot really for ducts is the remove the faux vents and run the hose from that. Are you at stock power levels? The big issue the car has is rear temps, which can cause the fronts to have to compensate when the rear fades. Ducting will help a lot, and that may be all you need to resolve your issue. Have not checked what the actual cost would be to ship them here, but for the fronts Honed Developments makes and air guide that looks nice and should work as well as running a hose would.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:19 PM
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Yes ducting is the next step but i also need to decide on the rotors since i have one cracked. And those rotors are pretty expensive! So i´m struggling to decide on keeping the same setup or change it, even if with ducting the problem gets better.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BoboTheMonkey View Post
I think on a race car, the best spot really for ducts is the remove the faux vents and run the hose from that. Are you at stock power levels? The big issue the car has is rear temps, which can cause the fronts to have to compensate when the rear fades. Ducting will help a lot, and that may be all you need to resolve your issue. Have not checked what the actual cost would be to ship them here, but for the fronts Honed Developments makes and air guide that looks nice and should work as well as running a hose would.
Rear temps makes sense as the fronts will need to compensate. And that would be addressed with ducting but also with buying the ballade kit to run 330 on the back also.
As for power i have a stroked f20c (to f22) so a bit more power but nothing major as boost would give.

Here is a picture of the last trackday. As you can see the rears are pretty lighted up so yes..the fronts are having hard times


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Old 12-09-2018, 02:26 PM
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two-piece vented front and rear will fix your problems.

Urge (through girodisc) makes both. the two-piece option dissipates heat much better than the OEM 1-piece. They work with the OEM calipers, front and rear, or the spoon calipers, front.

It's $1500 total ($750 front and $750 rear). If you can only afford to do one, do the front first.

Flow Rear Brake Rotors | URGE designs

Also, as the others have stated, ducting in addition to the above modifications will help as well.

Avoid the ballade kits - they will shift your brake bias around. My opinion is that many of their parts are not well researched with track development and lap times or documented longevity to prove the effectiveness of their modifications.

Additional edit:

This guy is running the exact setup i'm recommending (spoon caliper + F/R 2-piece vented rotors from Urge).
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/automoti...n-asm-1141336/

Proven to be effective.

Last edited by Bullwings; 12-09-2018 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bullwings View Post
two-piece vented front and rear will fix your problems.

Urge (through girodisc) makes both. the two-piece option dissipates heat much better than the OEM 1-piece. They work with the OEM calipers, front and rear, or the spoon calipers, front.

It's $1500 total ($750 front and $750 rear). If you can only afford to do one, do the front first.

Flow Rear Brake Rotors | URGE designs

Also, as the others have stated, ducting in addition to the above modifications will help as well.

Avoid the ballade kits - they will shift your brake bias around. My opinion is that many of their parts are not well researched with track development and lap times or documented longevity to prove the effectiveness of their modifications.

Additional edit:

This guy is running the exact setup i'm recommending (spoon caliper + F/R 2-piece vented rotors from Urge).
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/automoti...n-asm-1141336/

Proven to be effective.
My front PMU rotores are two piece also. So maybe upgrading the rears would help a lot with the front wear?
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wochi View Post
My front PMU rotores are two piece also. So maybe upgrading the rears would help a lot with the front wear?
Possibly. Many people have reported benefits of doing that, I can't speak from experience though.


My setup is ST40 front with Urge rears. I went ST40 fronts before upgrading to Urge rears. They are awesome. I tracked on them for 3 years with solid rear rotors, and I felt no particular need to upgrade the rears other than wanting to do it when the option became available.

I previously used P-mu, carbotech, and hawk pads. I have switched away from P-mu pads. The HC800+ was a pretty decent hybrid street/track pad that worked well with the ST40 but was still a compromise. I read and saw enough unfavorable results with CRs that I never tried them.

I am now on raybestos ST-43 pads all around. A local track friend with the ST40 kit got 80+ track days on his rotors and around 20+ days on a set of pads. I'm experiencing the same wear rate on pads as well.

Ultimately, the problem with the spoon kit is that it's using the stock pads, which are tiny and thin. From a time attack stand point, they're fine and good on weight. Where longevity and consumable wear is concerned, I'd pick a true BBK.
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Bullwings View Post
Possibly. Many people have reported benefits of doing that, I can't speak from experience though.


My setup is ST40 front with Urge rears. I went ST40 fronts before upgrading to Urge rears. They are awesome. I tracked on them for 3 years with solid rear rotors, and I felt no particular need to upgrade the rears other than wanting to do it when the option became available.

I previously used P-mu, carbotech, and hawk pads. I have switched away from P-mu pads. The HC800+ was a pretty decent hybrid street/track pad that worked well with the ST40 but was still a compromise. I read and saw enough unfavorable results with CRs that I never tried them.

I am now on raybestos ST-43 pads all around. A local track friend with the ST40 kit got 80+ track days on his rotors and around 20+ days on a set of pads. I'm experiencing the same wear rate on pads as well.

Ultimately, the problem with the spoon kit is that it's using the stock pads, which are tiny and thin. From a time attack stand point, they're fine and good on weight. Where longevity and consumable wear is concerned, I'd pick a true BBK.
Well...this post clarifies quite a lot for me! With that kind of durability from the st40´s i think we have a winner. I prefer to put some money first to save later so i think i will go with the st40 when i sell my spoons. I do use my car for time attack, but only for fun and not true competition so i prefer longevity over that tiny weight saving that could give that extra milisecond.
So as for changing the rears do you consider it to be essential ? 750dollars for a pair of rotors is also quite some money
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wochi View Post
Well...this post clarifies quite a lot for me! With that kind of durability from the st40´s i think we have a winner. I prefer to put some money first to save later so i think i will go with the st40 when i sell my spoons. I do use my car for time attack, but only for fun and not true competition so i prefer longevity over that tiny weight saving that could give that extra milisecond.
So as for changing the rears do you consider it to be essential ? 750dollars for a pair of rotors is also quite some money
Save the money and do a true front BBK first. It will yield the most beneficial results. Re-evaluate afterwards if you still want/need the rear. It rounds out the braking package but is nowhere near as crucial as the front.

Keep in mind that replacement rings for the ST40 are anywhere from $476 to $600 for a set of 2 (~$238-$300 each) - (for those of you wondering, the low price, yes, I just picked up a set for that price last month - PM for details). You should get around 80-100 track days out of them. Replace when the slots disappear and your rotors look like blanks. The overall financial math still says it's worth it. You should be able to get an ST40 328x28mm kit for ~$1600, and residual used market value is around $1000.

I am also still on my original ST40 rings, from 2013. I anticipate getting at least another 2 years (16-20 track days) out of them.

Last edited by Bullwings; 12-09-2018 at 04:04 PM.
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