With all this reclassing talk lately, we had a very interesting event this past weekend. I ran the CenDiv divisional at Peru, IN. The course was very busy... there were no real straightaways, but all the corners kept us just in VTEC. It was a *perfect* S2000 course.

The results? I killed ALL stock and SP classes with the exception of the winner of BSP and CSP. (both National Champs) BSP (Dan Popp) had a 103.4xx, CSP (Steve Merietz) a 103.2xx and I had a 104.0xx. I beat SS by 2.6 seconds (Chris Dvorak was 2nd in SS, and he was 5th at last year's Nationals). I PAX'ed the entire event by .6 seconds, and my fastest runs were dirty both days!

What does this tell us? Some days the S2000 is just amazing. Some days it can beat Z06's and RX7tt's. But at the previous CenDiv, the *same* RX7tt (at the *same* surface) beat us by a large margin. (3.5 seconds) There was this one straightaway that we entered out of VTEC, and it was a long straight. They were able to get back in the boost, but we chugged along the whole straightaway out of VTEC.

With Boost being time dependant, and VTEC being RPM dependant, the S2000 and RX7tt have very different strengths. They can't even be compared. Nor can the S2000 and Z06 or BoxsterS, who have torque ALL the time. When you really look at it, there is no other car like the S2000 when it comes to power delivery... therefore it is VERY course dependant.

Course dependant cars are very hard to class. The Miata is very course dependant. You either have to do what was done with the Miata and give the car it's own class, or you have to put the car in a higher class and have it only win when the course is favorable. You know which one I choose.

I didn't really have any idea *how* course dependant our car was until the events of this past weekend! See the results for yourself here:
http://www.spec-rx7.org/~cashmo/cendiv/200...001/result2.pdf

Here is the results index, where you can find the first event where SS beat us. (All the same drivers.) Check it out for comparison!
http://www.spec-rx7.org/~cashmo/cendiv/2001/2001.htm

[Edited by Jason Saini on 06-04-2001 at 09:22 AM]

 

Pix from the CenDiv event this past weekend...

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?...&a=13158226&f=0

 

Jason,

I've been giving this issue a lot of thought before sending my letter. As our regions course designer I've become very aware of how important this is. The truth of the matter is that on most courses we can't keep the car in VTEC in several important areas of the course. As a rule we will be slower out of several turns and wishing for VTEC earlier in the straights.

As for the pictures -- well it's easy to see who you'd rather sleep with!





[Edited by CG on 06-04-2001 at 12:16 PM]

 

Hmmmmm.....

Guess I'll have to keep the dogs away from Jason next time he's in town!!

Thanks for the info CG!

 

Jason, you raise some interesting points. While I'm at best an occasional autocrosser, and definitely not a serious one, I tend to agree that the results to date don't warrant up-classing the S2K.

However, you mentioned that you had a straightaway where you were out of VTEC the whole time. Isn't this pretty rare, since at any speed above 25 mph VTEC is within reach? I'm well aware that often times a downshift is difficult - say a 37 mph corner, do you stay in 2nd or downshift? But, that's more of a driver skill thing, right? I'm also aware that there are corners on some courses that take you under VTEC even in 1st gear (15-20 mph hairpins come to mind). But even in those circumstances, the car pulls well enough in 1st gear to make traction an issue on really tight corners.

I don't want to lend any credence to the reclassification effort, but could it be that the S2K is not just more course dependent than other cars, but more driver dependent? You seem to be getting better and better as you get into the season, maybe the car just takes more acclimation time?

I look forward to your comments on this, and perhaps opinions from the other regulars (Jason K., Ron and Annie, Joe G., etc.)

UL

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ultimate lurker
[B]
However, you mentioned that you had a straightaway where you were out of VTEC the whole time.

 

We had the opportunity at our recent Auto-X class to compare runs with downshift for VTEC vs. no downshift, on a specific course -- 71.008 sec very best time. I wanted a video camera mounted for accurate section timing (something I plan on doing as it is much cheaper than full accelerometer instrumentation) but we did have advice, ride-alongs, and driving by some of our Nationals-caliber instructors. Each car got 10 - 15 runs in the morning and the same in the afternoon. We had four S2000's, all in stock condition (three w/S02's, one w/mis-mounted Yoko AVS's).

The course had at least three locations where we could downshift to 1st and one section where 3rd gear was useable. It "felt" like a good thing to downshift in each spot because of the instant throttle response. It was NOT a good thing because even our best drivers felt the rear was too twitchy in the tight stuff at full VTEC and got their best full-course times keeping it in 2nd and working on a smoother line to carry more speed.

Everyone agreed that the downshifts should theoretically allow better times but it was way too easy to screw up the throttle. Maybe changing the linkage "ratio" for more travel would help but we agreed it was not just 'be a better driver and you can use the power.' It was more like 2nd gear was a better choice.

So that does bring us back to course dependency because our HP band seems narrow compared to some of the other cars. And I really wanted to drive that student's yellow F355...

 

Haven't had much experience yet with the S2K but the VTEC Preludes responded to some courses with better times and others with slower or at least no faster. The S2K certainly reacts differently (oversteer) with high-power 1st gear cornering so the technique will be different but the concept is the same - judicious use of 1st gear and throttle may or may not be faster. Generally, I'll try a downshift only on certain courses where corner exits are so slow as to be problematic. The corner still needs to be maximized - it's the additional acceleration that *can* help but only if it doesn't unsettle the suspension or cause excessive over- or understeer.

So, try downshifting but don't expect miracles. You still need to be smooth...

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jguerdat
[B]Generally, I'll try a downshift only on certain courses where corner exits are so slow as to be problematic.