D.C. Tour protest?
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 871
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From: Williamson County TN
During impound after day 1, Brian C. noticed that the entire shroud covering the radiator was missing from Ian's car. Brian filed a protest and the protest was upheld with Ian and his co-driver having their first day's run' DSQ'ed.
I hope that comes off as the objective reporting that I tried to have it come off as.
I competed at the event and due to the results of the protest I got bumped up to 6th place and a trophy position.
Side note, Ian and his co-driver both co-drove other people's cars on Sunday. Ian drove Pat S's 350Z and Jim drove Mike S's s2000 ( Jim turned a smoking last run in Mike's car, picked up one cone but a real fast raw time )
-- Tom L
I hope that comes off as the objective reporting that I tried to have it come off as.
I competed at the event and due to the results of the protest I got bumped up to 6th place and a trophy position.
Side note, Ian and his co-driver both co-drove other people's cars on Sunday. Ian drove Pat S's 350Z and Jim drove Mike S's s2000 ( Jim turned a smoking last run in Mike's car, picked up one cone but a real fast raw time )
-- Tom L
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 871
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From: Williamson County TN
negcamber, you know that any discussion like this has the potential to go downhill fast. As someone who was there and not in contention for the top spots I just wanted to answer Steve's question.
If you would like to discuss the merits of protests there is a place for that, but I think all I'm doing here is answering Steve's question.
BTW - I have that spoiler also.
-- T
If you would like to discuss the merits of protests there is a place for that, but I think all I'm doing here is answering Steve's question.
BTW - I have that spoiler also.
-- T
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From: Jacksonville, FL
Originally posted by NJTom2000
BTW - I have that spoiler also.
BTW - I have that spoiler also.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Speaking as one of the cars at the DC event with the rear spoiler, installed by the dealer as a mandatory option in 2000, yes, we run them with the spoiler. If anyone at the event thinks that it is a performance enhancement, then I would take it off for the event. Protesting it would be a weenie protest. Four holes are left in the top of the trunk if it is removed!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by negcamber
[B]
Sorry Tom...you are right this is a touchy subject.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by negcamber
[B]
Sorry Tom...you are right this is a touchy subject.
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Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Philadelphia
Somebody please quote the rule that says the Honda trunk spoiler is illegal. We couldn't get a clarification at the site. Appearance, comfort and convenience items are allowed.
That means;
Dealer installed A/C - OK
Dealer installed Mud Flaps - OK
Dealer installed body molding and trim - OK
Is the argument that spoiler, front dam and side strakes that Honda makes improve performance for autocross? If so it would be illegal.
We have always believed that they were appearance items and are allowed. It was removed because some believed it wasn't and we didn't want to challenge that opinion at the site.
We'll pose the question to the SEB unless someone can point to a prior ruling.
Brian Conners
That means;
Dealer installed A/C - OK
Dealer installed Mud Flaps - OK
Dealer installed body molding and trim - OK
Is the argument that spoiler, front dam and side strakes that Honda makes improve performance for autocross? If so it would be illegal.
We have always believed that they were appearance items and are allowed. It was removed because some believed it wasn't and we didn't want to challenge that opinion at the site.
We'll pose the question to the SEB unless someone can point to a prior ruling.
Brian Conners
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From: Catonsville
Re: the above mentioned car from NJ, I do recall seeing 4 holes of a removed spoiler on Sunday, didn't specifically look on Saturday.
But while we're on the (sore) subject, I'd like to bring up another question: the cars with the Koni Yellows seemed to have about a 1/2" less clearance between the fender and the tire. I don't think it's a camber issue, as I have -1.75 on my S as well. I know there's more than one perch for the spring seat. Despite being set on the "correct" perch, is there still a ride height discrepancy over stock? Is this, therefore protestable? I did not protest, as this was my first Tour event, and those that beat me were better drivers. I felt it wasn't my car that kept me 2 sec. out. But, before I go buy the Konis and a Gendron bar, I'd like to be sure that the Konis are not subject to fair protest at the next Tour or Championship event.
side note: I experienced rear inside wheelspin for the first time. Really bad with my Mugen 32mm bar, still there with the borrowed comptech at full stiff on Sunday. Broke my right endlink Sunday. Fuel starvation on left handers with 3 bars (doh!), and had a great time. Learned alot from everyone, thanks for all the tips!
But while we're on the (sore) subject, I'd like to bring up another question: the cars with the Koni Yellows seemed to have about a 1/2" less clearance between the fender and the tire. I don't think it's a camber issue, as I have -1.75 on my S as well. I know there's more than one perch for the spring seat. Despite being set on the "correct" perch, is there still a ride height discrepancy over stock? Is this, therefore protestable? I did not protest, as this was my first Tour event, and those that beat me were better drivers. I felt it wasn't my car that kept me 2 sec. out. But, before I go buy the Konis and a Gendron bar, I'd like to be sure that the Konis are not subject to fair protest at the next Tour or Championship event.
side note: I experienced rear inside wheelspin for the first time. Really bad with my Mugen 32mm bar, still there with the borrowed comptech at full stiff on Sunday. Broke my right endlink Sunday. Fuel starvation on left handers with 3 bars (doh!), and had a great time. Learned alot from everyone, thanks for all the tips!
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From: Chicago
There has never been a formal ruling on the wings, but it's generally understood amongst most longtime BS comepetitors (do a search on this site) that the wings are illegal and protestable. That being said, there has always been a gentleman's agreement not to protest them because there's no way anyone could argue that they help you win an autocross.
With respect to the item in question on Ian's car, everyone know's it's not worth .8 seconds, so first off we have to recognize that he did a helluva job driving.
This game is more than driving sometimes, it's about driving and playing by the rules. To put it another way, it's best not to make sure you leave yourself open to protest by leaving off something simple. I've seen it before... Mark Allen was protested at Nationals for not having a piece of fender-lining trim on a Civic. The part was $23 at the dealership - wouldn't it just have been easier to make sure it's there in the first place?
In the end, this could all have been avoided by making the effort to get the piece in place before the event. I remember talking to Ian at Florida and saying something to the effect of 'Make sure you have that thing on before Nationals, it's just the type of protest bait that people are looking for when you're fast.' In the case of this shroud, it could even be argued that there is a slight performance advantage, so in the end a protest was well founded, and upheld. Would I have done it? No, if I got beaten by .8 I would be questioning my driving more than any radiator shroud...
...but, the protest was well founded and the best way to deal with it is to make the car compliant for future events. Just moving forward from here and not dwelling on the past is the best course of action for all parties involved.
As for the Koni shocks and spring perch issue, someone simply needs to measure them... Our shocks were directly compared and measured with a set of stock shocks as they went on the car. It makes the installation take longer, but it's the type of dilligence required at this level of the sport. Take the time to make sure your car is compliant and it will pay off in the end... I remember a similar situation on Sport Pkg. Miatas in '96 where the Konis were the improper ride height and you had to get shims to make the car compliant. Maybe it's going to be the same thing with the S2000.
All this reminds me - I gotta go put that RF mudflap back on that got knocked off by our trailer!
I promised myself I wouldn't get into this whole thing without talking to the parties involved, but hey - I'm never one to think before I speak, so I just blurted this out. I apologize if I've offended or singled out anyone, that was not my intent!
See some of y'all in Oscoda! I can't wait to get out on some grippy concrete after sliding all over the Toledo surface!
With respect to the item in question on Ian's car, everyone know's it's not worth .8 seconds, so first off we have to recognize that he did a helluva job driving.
This game is more than driving sometimes, it's about driving and playing by the rules. To put it another way, it's best not to make sure you leave yourself open to protest by leaving off something simple. I've seen it before... Mark Allen was protested at Nationals for not having a piece of fender-lining trim on a Civic. The part was $23 at the dealership - wouldn't it just have been easier to make sure it's there in the first place?
In the end, this could all have been avoided by making the effort to get the piece in place before the event. I remember talking to Ian at Florida and saying something to the effect of 'Make sure you have that thing on before Nationals, it's just the type of protest bait that people are looking for when you're fast.' In the case of this shroud, it could even be argued that there is a slight performance advantage, so in the end a protest was well founded, and upheld. Would I have done it? No, if I got beaten by .8 I would be questioning my driving more than any radiator shroud...
...but, the protest was well founded and the best way to deal with it is to make the car compliant for future events. Just moving forward from here and not dwelling on the past is the best course of action for all parties involved.
As for the Koni shocks and spring perch issue, someone simply needs to measure them... Our shocks were directly compared and measured with a set of stock shocks as they went on the car. It makes the installation take longer, but it's the type of dilligence required at this level of the sport. Take the time to make sure your car is compliant and it will pay off in the end... I remember a similar situation on Sport Pkg. Miatas in '96 where the Konis were the improper ride height and you had to get shims to make the car compliant. Maybe it's going to be the same thing with the S2000.
All this reminds me - I gotta go put that RF mudflap back on that got knocked off by our trailer!
I promised myself I wouldn't get into this whole thing without talking to the parties involved, but hey - I'm never one to think before I speak, so I just blurted this out. I apologize if I've offended or singled out anyone, that was not my intent!
See some of y'all in Oscoda! I can't wait to get out on some grippy concrete after sliding all over the Toledo surface!