205/55 245/45 on stock wheels

 

Owning and tracking both an S2K and a Cobra Mustang (w/IRS), I can say the S2K is a far better balanced car. I've been following the front sway bar discussion but haven't added one yet. I've driven an S2K with it (and more), and my Mustangs have all been heavily modded for Open Track usage (21 years Open Track experience). While the S2K has some serious flaws I've discussed elsewhere (roll bar height, solid rear discs, to name a few), it's a better driver's car than any upright coupe with a poor weight balance will ever be.

The S2K is much better with an alignment (as are all cars). The alignment specs are of course very much different for Auto-X and Open Track events.

I do think the combination of the high-RPM torque peak, VTEC activation, and torque sensing diff can be a "new" experience to many drivers - even akin to an oversteer on/off switch not unlike some turbo cars. There is indeed a lot to learn about this car, as is true with any car you take to the track.

Come out to TWS sometime and take some laps, you'll be surprised...our "Driver's Edge" group will give you 8x 25 minute sessions for a reasonable price - and a dedicated instructor too. TWS is a great track with many different kinds of turns at many different speeds. I'm an instructor in the group, look me up there.


[Edited by jwfisher on 06-08-2001 at 08:58 AM]

 

jwfisher, Thanks for the invitation. What have you done to your S2000 for TWS track days? Where is the schedule of events for the "Drivers Edge" classes? You don't happen to own a white Cobra do you?

On the subject of balance there is no debating the problems with the Mustang but that being said, by following the setup advice of Steeda I had drastic improvements in the cars balance for a total cost of about $4000. It seems to have the same gains on the S2000 will a lot cost more. The whole reason I sold my Mustang for the S2000 is once I got the suspension setup the flexibility of the chassis became very noticeable. Steeda and other mod shops said jack rails and sub-frame connector were next. I just said "no way" I'm not adding more metal to a 3650lb car. Anyway, the coilovers from Mugen are $3300 and that won't fix everything. For me I am going to get an alignment and see if I can reduce the oversteer at high speed. I really think the problem is with the rear shocks but I think with camber and toe adjustments I can make some improvements.

I would be very cool to start a database of setups for track, auto-x and street for a least getting an idea of a place to start.

 

Driver's Edge: http://www.thedriversedge.net/ - 3 more events are coming up at three different tracks! This will be most excellent!

Yes that is me, see my website for details on both cars.

I am suppossed to instruct at the September Honda event, and I am looking forward to it. Frankly, though, don't count on a marque-only event to teach you anything special about your car that you can't get at another well-run club. The nastiness of the P-clubs teaches us that. And, having experience in a wider range of cars than just one is a far better set of experiences for the instructors and yields a much more serious event - again go to Driver's Edge. I'll take them anyday over a brand-specific group.

I've only done the spoon x-brace so far, I will begin another round of mods next month. However, the plan is to leave this car *very* close to stock even if it is slower or not entirely optimized. After doing the "change everything" Cobra (and 9 Mustangs/Cobras before it, not countinjg numerous cars of friends), I will somehow learn to love this car as it is, not with a total re-engineering.

For the alignment, I highly recommend Donny at Christian Brothers in Round Rock. You won't find a better alignment guy this side of a professional race shop. He's done all my cars for years now and I won't go anywhere else.

I agree with the reply above that the shocks are not too bad on this car....I have Honda's own tape of the testing they did at Nurburgring (that should be shown to all the Austin group - it's a great video) and it's clear this car works - if we did indeed get the same suspension tuning as did the rest of the world (the intro articles said clearly that we didn't, although I can't get any kind of confirmation on this from anybody). As for springs, it's low enough and unlike the Mustang worlkd lowering isn't necessarily the panecea here.

Do you have experience with an IRS car - the alignment is twice as complicated as a solid axle car and changes in the back have a profound effect on the front. I definitely don't want an auto-x alignment - this car rotates well enough at speed. Everyone shoudl work up a level of experience with 4-0wheel alignments, since my Cobra was the first IRS tracxk car I did, I spent a whole lot of time and money coming up with the right alignment for it - even getting too agressive (it had fabulous turn in when all was said and done, the front was fairly standar dont hat car since I'd been doing front alignments since my '79 Mustang Cobra - even thought he front suspension has been significantly improved since then). I expect some lessons to carry over but the exact specs will absolutely not. I'm still working on the right specs for open track...


Yes, a database would be excellent.


[Edited by jwfisher on 06-08-2001 at 01:30 PM]

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cdelena
[B]
If you read the Mugen write-up on setting up the suspension they suggest more lowering in the rear than front. This obviously shifts the balance to the rear to a certain degree. I am going to theorize that your

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wea
[B]On the subject of balance there is no debating the problems with the Mustang but that being said, by following the setup advice of Steeda I had drastic improvements in the cars balance for a total cost of about $4000.

 

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/products/mu.../tech/s2000.asp

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jguerdat
[B] This begs the question - how does the Mustang after all the tweaks compare to the S2K without any?

 

I'll leave out the solid-axle Mustangs from this, since from a suspension standpoint they are absurdly obsolete IMHO (I can say this after Open Tracking 9 of them, all modified, and finishing my current Mustang career with a CObra with an IRS - and about damn time for an IRS too!)...

I was one of the first people to start modifying an IRS Cobra in the country, interestingly I ended up with nearly the same spring rate of the 2000 R but more shock all around. And a tiny bit lower, although the new IRS was designed to be optimal at near-stock height. There are very few parts available to modify the Cobrda IRS (springs and shocks), even less than the S2K (counting the huge number of parts only comonly available in Japan).

The Cobra has a lot more power than thke S2K, all over the band (although of course fuel shutoff is 7200 instead of 9300!). Also the car is noticably far heavier (3450 on paper, compared to 2700 - but the feel of it is out of proportion heavier), and the weight balance is poorer (54.4% on the front wheels - incidentally, the best of any Mustang by a good percentage - due to the IRS). The S2K is of course 50-50 and that's one of the best aspects of this car.

The steering in the Cobra is comparitively terrible. While it is the best of any prior year Cobra or Mustang (thanks to ackerman changes in '96, and internal steering rack changes in '99), it's by comparison to the S2K terribly light, with very poor feedback. I really like the S2K steering, and appreciate the smart technology behind it too.

Ergonomics and seating in the S2K are incredibly better. While the SN95 Mustang has a pleasing dash design (best ever) for it's market, it is starting to show it's age. Given the S2K's mission, the dash is arguably better, for a serious racing-head like me I appreciate it's no-nonsense functional design. I like the remote radio controls (mute, volume, and station - the mode switch is totally useless). I wish the radio was better but then the mission of this car is not it's sound system.

And, the Mustang/Cobra seats are absolutely terrible (even the 2001s). High water Ford marks remain the short-lived Reacro option (79-82, and of course on the 2000 R), and the SVO (showing Ford, or more correctly Lear Sigler could do it if they wanted too). You'll notice I usually put Recaros into my Mustangs/Cobras. Nonetheless, the S2K seats are far better than anything Ford has done (except Recaros) and do not immediately need replacement. They are well designed, well bolstered, the padding is sufficiently dense (German-made Recaros are better, American-made Recaros are softer in foam density - I prefer the German philosophy of seat design).

Keep in mind that I am a solid fan of the Cobra, and will be more so once it's redesign comes onto the market in a few years (but only if it gets the chassis and platform it deserves). Also, of course, the Cobra and the S2K have two completely different missions - they are absolutely apples and oranges. No comparison, different markets, etc. I bought the S2K because I wanted somehting that was different from my Cobra, more fun to drive around the street, and a convertible (with structural integrity!!). I'm not into posing, street racing, sound systems, or the import culture (nothing wrong with it, buit it's not my thing); I bought both cars because they are very serious in their own classes.

My sole interest is Open Track events, otherwise I'd drive something very different. Both cars have their advantages on the track, but neither is perfect for these types of events:
- The S2K is frankly under-powered. Open Track events have grown up considerably over the 21 years I've been doing them. Used to be nothing could beat a well prepared Mustang overall (vettes, for one, were all terrible until the last 112-15 years - and rarely showed up; BMWs like the 6 series used to be good but had to many handling quirks, M3s up to the newest model aren't all they are cracked up to be). Nowadays you have to have 450 horses to keep in front. The Mustang/Cobra isn't going to get there (supercharged Mustangs or Cobras or anything else run too hot under these use conditions and just get slower as the session goes by - especially here in the super-hot Texas climate). I wouldn't even consider a supercharger on a track'd S2K - while I have faith in the integrity of the internals, the compression ratio is too high and the development has not gone far enough to survive in an ultra-hard full-boost full-RPM hot weather situation).
- The S2K has better handling dynamics, but I haven't seen the upper (meaning on a modified car) end of it yet. My Cobra has not been not fully developed either, but despite it's weight and dynamics issue it's faster around most turns on my usual tracks. However, the S2K is far more enjoyable to drive than the Cobra. I can have fun in this car and like it, even if I'm not the fastest.
- The S2K has very poor brakes for this type of event, with very few options to improve them. The rear brakes are unacceptable - the car badly needs vented brakes (and there is no way to fix this problem). The front rotors could be larger too. Unlike the CObra, for the S2K it's so difficult to get wheels of the proper offset that I forsee major problems getting some with the correct offset that also clear some big Bremos or similar brakes. By comparison, the Cobra comes with 13x1.1" frton rotors (manufactured by Brembo and *nearly* bullit-proof) and improved 2-piston calipers; and rear 11.6" vented rear rotors with single piston calipers (those calipers being the ultimate weak link, but aftermarket alternatives are now available). Many aftermarket serious brake systenms are available for the Mustang (probably the best selection of any conventional car), mine ran the same size rotors but with Brembo 4-piston calipers. It was trouble free, and there is the fairly inexpensive 14" brembos now on the market and becoming commonplace. Compare this to the totally inadaquate brakes on the Z06 - the first thing that cars needs are real brakes (or maybe the second after quality & reliability).
- The S2K has the very serious problem of the roll bar hoop height. I still don't see any viable fix for this, and frankly a convertible would never be my choice of a good open track car anyway. Despite Honda's excellent job of torsional integrity, it's still not as good as a solid-roof car would be. And, many groups do not allow us (and rightly so) to run on the track with race tires. Rolling over in this car (given the hoop height) as it is would result in a broken neck and a permanent disability, minimally, and probably (or hopefully) death. Nonetheless, I will continue to use this car at 8/10s for a while, but I won't take it on the serious tracks. Keep in mind, too, that Open Tracks (or DEs as sonme call them) are not races and are not 10/10ths - at least not in unprepared cars.

Also, I'm a technologist, and I really admire the fantastic engineering job Honda did on this car and especially on this engine. My biggest question (other than which 17x7.5 and 17x8.5" wheels fr/rr to use) about this car is what will happen next year to it? Given the usual model cycles, we could see Honda update this car for 2002. I don't see too much more production volume, or a solid roof, but I'd like to see some more suspension work done and an R model to benefit the rest of us (since we can rest assured that if one comes out very few of us will find one to buy!). And, please lighten it up a bit too!

Ok, there you have it, quickly anyway. Controversial, but this is what I see after many many years of doing this stuff. I have been instructing for a good part of those years, and have driven many many different cars on the street and on the track. There are far better cars I could get for Open Track events, but I have to admit I'm taken with how fun this car is. Isn't that what this is all about? I'm kind of down on many of the other candidates right now, and/or new models of them are coming in 2003/4 and I'd like to wait and see what happens. Given my lack of desire to add to the mountain of parts take-offs in my garage and garage attic, this car will do it for me, for now. I'll keep it very near to stock. Besides, and excuse the sexism here, I'd like to love her as she is given all her good points and bad. It will be interesting to see if I can pull that off!

 

I just want to say that I have really enjoyed this thread. Thank you.

 

jwfisher, Is that the Donny from Felix Dailey Automotive? If it is, he is the man. We spent about 20hrs on my Mustang setup and he and I really communicated well. I hope this is the same "Donny."

Also you live or lived on an apartment off 360 right? I think I've met you before when I was visiting Mark Robinson.

[Edited by wea on 06-08-2001 at 09:27 PM]