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You know what happens when you mix oil with water?
Don't let your bearings look like this poor old bird. This is not a "clearly superior product" this is a great way to toast your engine. A separate oil cooler and radiator is a clearly superior idea. You get independent control over oil and water temperatures, components of higher quality are readily available, and there is zero risk of destroying your bearings from a tiny leak. Literally a pinhole in a weld on this radiator is enough to require a ground up engine rebuild, what percentage of aftermarket radiators leak at some point? This is absolutely not worth the risk for the gain of the slight connivence of having a single thing to install. Do yourself a favor and buy the SakeBomb Setrab oil cooler, its on sale for an insane price right now and your can easily get a top of the line Setrab oil cooler and a very nice radiator for well under $900.
So I was a bit off the mark on the exact failure mode but close enough.
Here is my oil pressure vs RPM graph using the Sakebomb Garage 19 row Setrab cooler. 35 psi at idle, 80+ psi above 2600 rpm, ~10psi drop at VTEC as expected (3800 rpm). Meeting OEM specs on a MY00 AP1 with 75k miles and 30+ trackdays.
Last edited by yessamgerg; 07-28-2017 at 08:58 PM.
Here is my oil pressure vs RPM graph using the Sakebomb Garage 19 row Setrab cooler. 35 psi at idle, 80+ psi above 2600 rpm, ~10psi drop at VTEC as expected (3800 rpm). Meeting OEM specs on a MY00 AP1 with 75k miles and 30+ trackdays.
I should mention that this is measured AFTER the thermostat, oil lines and oil cooler, immediately before the oil goes into the filter.
Last edited by yessamgerg; 07-29-2017 at 11:40 AM.
Since the car comes with a water-oil heat exchanger I won't debate that. However, it is clear that there is either a defect in the design of the oil cooler or in the oil cooler itself. Jackson Racing has been around since 1979, CSF has been making radiators since 1975; they should have been able to avoid this problem and should be able to stand behind their product.
Jackson should accept a return. If they don't, the credit card company should provide arbitration and a refund. That Jackson is reported fishing around to test it and is talking about motor oil weight makes it seem they aren't up to handling the problem or are trying to avoid handling the problem (it may be a big cost for them).
For those that remember, PWR out of Australia used to have a product like the Jackson Racing Unit that had an integrated oil cooler in the radiator. I inquired them about purchasing one awhile back and this was their response:
Hello Anthony,
The radiator design with integrated engine oil cooler has been discontinued due to concerns of too much oil pressure drop. However, both the 42mm & 55mm core versions of the radiator without in-tank oil cooler are still available.
So it surprised me when I saw that Jackson racing came out with unit...... keep in mind PWR manufactures radiators for f1 cars....
Since the car comes with a water-oil heat exchanger I won't debate that. However, it is clear that there is either a defect in the design of the oil cooler or in the oil cooler itself. Jackson Racing has been around since 1979, CSF has been making radiators since 1975; they should have been able to avoid this problem and should be able to stand behind their product.
Jackson should accept a return. If they don't, the credit card company should provide arbitration and a refund. That Jackson is reported fishing around to test it and is talking about motor oil weight makes it seem they aren't up to handling the problem or are trying to avoid handling the problem (it may be a big cost for them).
after the email I got I asked them if what they're saying is 60psi is completely normal and safe for their product. Of course, radio silence because I think we all know the answer.
I paid through PayPal. They aren't likely to do shit for me.
after the email I got I asked them if what they're saying is 60psi is completely normal and safe for their product. Of course, radio silence because I think we all know the answer.
I paid through PayPal. They aren't likely to do shit for me.
Did you use PayPal as a passthrough to a non-PayPal credit card (e.g. Discover)? If so, you could file a dispute there. Also, in this case, I think it is covered by PayPal's policies:
My order arrived – but there’s a problem
You can open a dispute if the item you receive is significantly different than how it was described. For example:
You received a completely different item.
Example: You purchased a tennis DVD, but received a tennis racket.
The item's condition was misrepresented.
Example: The listing said “new,” but the item was clearly used.
The item is missing parts or features, and this was not disclosed.
Example: You bought a table, and it showed up with only three legs.
You purchased a specific quantity of an item, but received the wrong amount.
Example: You bought two laptops, but received only one.
The item was damaged en route to its destination.
Example: Your antique vase was broken in transit.
You received a counterfeit version of the item.
Example: A "genuine" diamond bracelet ended up being cubic zirconia.
We don't cover buyer's remorse, however. So be sure you really want an item before completing the transaction.
For those that remember, PWR out of Australia used to have a product like the Jackson Racing Unit that had an integrated oil cooler in the radiator. I inquired them about purchasing one awhile back and this was their response:
Hello Anthony,
The radiator design with integrated engine oil cooler has been discontinued due to concerns of too much oil pressure drop. However, both the 42mm & 55mm core versions of the radiator without in-tank oil cooler are still available.
So it surprised me when I saw that Jackson racing came out with unit...... keep in mind PWR manufactures radiators for f1 cars....
The PWR In-Tank Aluminium Oil Cooler offers the latest in cooling technologies, through a product which has high heat transfer and low pressure drop, resulting in lower engine or transmission temperatures and better reliability.
These coolers have been designed and manufactured in-house at PWR Perfomance Products by thermodynamics engineers using the latest computational thermodynamic software. The coolers are made from a full aluminium construction with a unique internal fin design which tubulates oil flow for increased surface area contact aiding better heat dispersion, strength and distribution of oil flow. This in combination with the external waterside fin which is designed to increase external surface area and maximise heat transfer ensures the PWR In-tank Oil coolers are the benchmark in Oil cooling technology.
They own C&R in the US which also makes water-to-oil oil coolers (https://www.crracing.com/). Dana sells the technology to OEMs: Long Radiator In-Tank Engine Oil Coolers Dana Light Vehicle. Laminova makes water-to-oil coolers, I'm not sure if they are mounted in tank for any applications. Dana and Laminova sell units to OEMs that are in-line with the filter like the OEM S2000 oil cooler.
If it were me I would cross post this thread on other forums/Facebook pages for other makes/models that they make this same design for. One, it may be a problem that others are experiencing which builds a case against them. Two it will get more attention from a negative PR standpoint, which this issue clearly deserves.
Hi S2Ki. We apologize for not getting on here earlier. We’ve heard about the concerns from some that have emailed in and we dove head first into see what was going on.
A brief history of the evolution of the S2000 Dual Radiator/Oil Cooler product:
When we started testing our Scion FR-S supercharger system and eventually our Scion FRS SCCA Race Car in hot weather back in 2012, we noticed that the oil temperature would climb to an unsafe level during extended hard runs in hot weather and the ECU would start retarding the ignition timing and richening up the fuel to protect the engine. This is a well-known track issue with the FR-S/BRZ and we designed our Track Oil Cooler system using a Setrab core. This system has worked flawlessly, but we had a desire to complete our cooling lineup with a radiator/oil cooler combination.
We contracted with CSF Radiators to develop a radiator/oil cooler for us to eliminate the oil temperature problem, while offering OEM features of proper oil warm up and temperature management. After several iterations we found the right combination of radiator capability and oil cooling capability, and we put it into production. It has been a fantastic product and we used it to win the 2016 SCCA National Championship in Touring 4. During this time we were in the process of building a new S2000 Race Car and designing new S2000 components, so we asked CSF to create a radiator/oil cooler for the S2000 with the same thermal capabilities as our FR-S/BRZ version we were already using with great success. The CSF engineers sent us a prototype they felt was the right compromise of size, space, cooling etc. We installed it in a friend’s low mileage S2000 street car and the results during street operation were excellent. But to fully test any of our products, they must be used on track. Considering we didn’t have our S2000 race car built yet, we sent a complete kit to Karla at MotoIQ. Karla installed the kit and used it all last summer in her S2000 Time Attack car and she reported back to us that the system was working flawlessly. With this great news and feedback, we put the product up for sale.
Fast forward to now. As soon as we had an early report about low oil pressure, we called Karla to ask if she had struggled with the issue that some of you are commenting on. She hadn’t experienced any of the extreme pressure problems mentioned but that her car never had the high oil pressure spec’d out in the shop manual even before installing the radiator/oil cooler so oil pressure below the minimum level spec’d out in the shop manual wasn’t unusual to her.
We’ve been in contact with CSF Radiators and asked their engineering team about the discrepancy between all of these cars with this particular radiator/oil cooler and none of our other radiator/oil coolers. What we’ve been told is that to get the same thermal efficiency in the small S2000 lower radiator tank as the large FR-S tank, the Fin Density of the cooler had to be doubled. This increase in fin density has caused the discrepancy in oil pressure from one S2000 to another. Also, we must take into consideration that the S2000 has an extremely high oil pressure threshold in general when compared to other engines, which is exacerbated by any restriction whatsoever. Furthermore, if used in conjunction with a non-OEM engine, such as an engine built with loose rod and main bearing tolerances, there could be a higher drop in oil pressure than normal.
Because of these inconsistencies in the S2000 Radiator/Oil Cooler product, we are recommending our S2000 customers at this time to disconnect the oil cooler lines and go back to a stock oil system. For our S2000 Radiator/Oil Cooler customers, we will offer our new Setrab-based Track oil cooler system, free of charge. Please contact us at tech@jacksonracing.com or by phone for more information.
Hi S2Ki. We apologize for not getting on here earlier. We’ve heard about the concerns from some that have emailed in and we dove head first into see what was going on.
A brief history of the evolution of the S2000 Dual Radiator/Oil Cooler product:
When we started testing our Scion FR-S supercharger system and eventually our Scion FRS SCCA Race Car in hot weather back in 2012, we noticed that the oil temperature would climb to an unsafe level during extended hard runs in hot weather and the ECU would start retarding the ignition timing and richening up the fuel to protect the engine. This is a well-known track issue with the FR-S/BRZ and we designed our Track Oil Cooler system using a Setrab core. This system has worked flawlessly, but we had a desire to complete our cooling lineup with a radiator/oil cooler combination.
We contracted with CSF Radiators to develop a radiator/oil cooler for us to eliminate the oil temperature problem, while offering OEM features of proper oil warm up and temperature management. After several iterations we found the right combination of radiator capability and oil cooling capability, and we put it into production. It has been a fantastic product and we used it to win the 2016 SCCA National Championship in Touring 4. During this time we were in the process of building a new S2000 Race Car and designing new S2000 components, so we asked CSF to create a radiator/oil cooler for the S2000 with the same thermal capabilities as our FR-S/BRZ version we were already using with great success. The CSF engineers sent us a prototype they felt was the right compromise of size, space, cooling etc. We installed it in a friend’s low mileage S2000 street car and the results during street operation were excellent. But to fully test any of our products, they must be used on track. Considering we didn’t have our S2000 race car built yet, we sent a complete kit to Karla at MotoIQ. Karla installed the kit and used it all last summer in her S2000 Time Attack car and she reported back to us that the system was working flawlessly. With this great news and feedback, we put the product up for sale.
Fast forward to now. As soon as we had an early report about low oil pressure, we called Karla to ask if she had struggled with the issue that some of you are commenting on. She hadn’t experienced any of the extreme pressure problems mentioned but that her car never had the high oil pressure spec’d out in the shop manual even before installing the radiator/oil cooler so oil pressure below the minimum level spec’d out in the shop manual wasn’t unusual to her.
We’ve been in contact with CSF Radiators and asked their engineering team about the discrepancy between all of these cars with this particular radiator/oil cooler and none of our other radiator/oil coolers. What we’ve been told is that to get the same thermal efficiency in the small S2000 lower radiator tank as the large FR-S tank, the Fin Density of the cooler had to be doubled. This increase in fin density has caused the discrepancy in oil pressure from one S2000 to another. Also, we must take into consideration that the S2000 has an extremely high oil pressure threshold in general when compared to other engines, which is exacerbated by any restriction whatsoever. Furthermore, if used in conjunction with a non-OEM engine, such as an engine built with loose rod and main bearing tolerances, there could be a higher drop in oil pressure than normal.
Because of these inconsistencies in the S2000 Radiator/Oil Cooler product, we are recommending our S2000 customers at this time to disconnect the oil cooler lines and go back to a stock oil system. For our S2000 Radiator/Oil Cooler customers, we will offer our new Setrab-based Track oil cooler system, free of charge. Please contact us at tech@jacksonracing.com or by phone for more information.
-Oscar Jackson Jr.
So the takeaways are:
-You guys don't specialize in S2000's or track them.
-There was no track testing or data collected after development, but it was street tested without throwing a check engine light.
-A third party did testing but also did not collect data, and the test car may have had low oil pressure issues to start with?
-The fix is mimicking existing (tested) oil cooler designs from competitors, and capping the oil cooler system in your radiator (with a smaller than stock radiator because of the displaced volume).
I think everyone here appreciates addressing the issue, but it seems apparent that these problems go well beyond just this setup alone if it was released with no actual testing or documentation.
07-28-2017, 08:50 PM
