Managing oversteer - driver or setup?
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Ottawa
Managing oversteer - driver or setup?
I've driven a couple of track days and a couple of autocrosses with my first set of R-compounds. Got some impressions on the handling. What are your opinions on these examples? Is more driver practice required or is there a setup thing to be done? (I know BOTH.)
Setup:
Stock 2002, stock suspension
RA1's, front: 205, rear: 245 (should be equivalent OEM stagger)
UK alignment (all degrees), front: camber -1, toe 0, caster 5.9, rear: camber -2, toe 0.2
1) Autocross, fast slolam-like lane changes flowing into a sweeper/wide hairpin. All 2nd gear, acceleration through slolam, constant partial throttle into final turn. Ends up in unexpected but slow slide in the backend, while the front is still gripping. Obvioius solution is to break the last swing, go straight tap the brakes and start turn, but it feels like it should hold for the sweeping turn. It's almost like the transistions don't let the car take a set. Guess what bothers me the most is that I can't feel when the rears are losing grip.
2) Tracking, corner exit. Don't feel confident applying more throttle until way after apex. The throttle seems very sensitive, with just a little modulation quickly swinging the back end around. I'm entering the corners slow, with no hint of understeer. Some pictures from the track, the inside rear, while not off the ground, was way higher than what it felt like.
3) On bumpy turns, the back feels like it is skipping like a stone on water. Definitely don't like this trait. Suspect it is that dreaded "bump steer" or at least the agressive rear toe curve. I remember reading a thread that King Motorsports had a bump steer kit, but can't find it. Also, has anyone tried swaping the '04 rear knuckle plus other required parts yet?
Thanks in advance.
Setup:
Stock 2002, stock suspension
RA1's, front: 205, rear: 245 (should be equivalent OEM stagger)
UK alignment (all degrees), front: camber -1, toe 0, caster 5.9, rear: camber -2, toe 0.2
1) Autocross, fast slolam-like lane changes flowing into a sweeper/wide hairpin. All 2nd gear, acceleration through slolam, constant partial throttle into final turn. Ends up in unexpected but slow slide in the backend, while the front is still gripping. Obvioius solution is to break the last swing, go straight tap the brakes and start turn, but it feels like it should hold for the sweeping turn. It's almost like the transistions don't let the car take a set. Guess what bothers me the most is that I can't feel when the rears are losing grip.
2) Tracking, corner exit. Don't feel confident applying more throttle until way after apex. The throttle seems very sensitive, with just a little modulation quickly swinging the back end around. I'm entering the corners slow, with no hint of understeer. Some pictures from the track, the inside rear, while not off the ground, was way higher than what it felt like.
3) On bumpy turns, the back feels like it is skipping like a stone on water. Definitely don't like this trait. Suspect it is that dreaded "bump steer" or at least the agressive rear toe curve. I remember reading a thread that King Motorsports had a bump steer kit, but can't find it. Also, has anyone tried swaping the '04 rear knuckle plus other required parts yet?
Thanks in advance.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,987
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From: Hawaii
I would say both.
As a driver, each of us has to learn how to manage oversteer and how to use the looseness to our advantage. Many people are too quick to change the car's natural behavior without going through the rigors of the frustration that's involved with making the best effort to control it first.
Equipment wise, an adjustable front sway bar is the way to go. I have no experience with your 205/245 stagger but having the ability to dial in some understeer will help stabilize the car. Having mild-moderate understeer allows RWD cars to hit the throttle earlier and harder for the corner exits, however IMHO, it's best to use only enough to maintain the car's balance.
The UK alignment works well for me also, however don't go too crazy on the camber in the front wheels on OEM suspension, however if you want better turn in, you could try a little tow out, or for better exits, a little toe-in. I'm about to try a little more camber in the rears (.5 degress more) myself.
As a driver, each of us has to learn how to manage oversteer and how to use the looseness to our advantage. Many people are too quick to change the car's natural behavior without going through the rigors of the frustration that's involved with making the best effort to control it first.
Equipment wise, an adjustable front sway bar is the way to go. I have no experience with your 205/245 stagger but having the ability to dial in some understeer will help stabilize the car. Having mild-moderate understeer allows RWD cars to hit the throttle earlier and harder for the corner exits, however IMHO, it's best to use only enough to maintain the car's balance.
The UK alignment works well for me also, however don't go too crazy on the camber in the front wheels on OEM suspension, however if you want better turn in, you could try a little tow out, or for better exits, a little toe-in. I'm about to try a little more camber in the rears (.5 degress more) myself.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 805
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From: Dublin, OH
I was on track a few weeks ago. I was driving a car with the softtop removed and had a hard top on it. When I took the top off I noticed the car was quite a bit more prone to oversteer as the speeds rose. I can't imagine that amount of weight would matter and the track temperature wasn't drastically different between sessions. The only thing I can think of is the increased lift from the top being off the car.
Any thoughts?
Any thoughts?
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Registered User
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,987
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From: Hawaii
By my own experiences, I use Victoracer V700's and set my Comptech bar stiffer (and experienced too much understeer than I prefer because I prefer a little oversteer versus understeer), however the understeer was minimized by changing the alignment by spec'ing a little toe out in the front.
