I have the habit of rowing, not because I think I gain anything in braking or think it makes that much of a difference on my synchros, but rather the entire timing and process of the downshift-rev match-clutch in and out is so automated in my brain that to disrupt that (without a compelling advantage) to me is riskier than just doing what comes naturally.

Billly, one thing you may wish to clarify in your statement of "Modern cars don't require "engine braking" statement is how it might be interpreted by people on this forum who are just learning. One could read into that statement that you advocate just free-wheeling your way into the corner until you get on the throttle.

I agree that in this context there is no real braking value in rowing through the intermediate gears, but one still wants to end up downshifting to their final gear while decelerating, which some people would translate to 'engine braking'. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but just helpful to the newbies who are reading and learning here.

 

For sure, there is no one way.

Personally, I skip gears on the way down and delay downshifts as late as possible. But I have been in situations where I *did* have to rely on engine braking, in which case I downshift through every gear, as early as possible.

Anyway, I would never suggest that you *have* to skip gears, or even that you necessarily should. For me, it works best that way.

Regarding downshifting from 5th to 2nd at 60mph, I don't think there are many situations where it is appropriate to downshift to 2nd resulting in 8200rpm where an upshift to 3rd is almost immediately necessary. And regarding the "if the shift is instantaneous" point, you definitely should have some mechanical sympathy. You can't just jam the shifter home and dump the clutch. Technique is important, whether you're skipping gears on the way down or not.

 

I row through the gears while braking; releasing the clutch in each intermediate gear while blipping the throttle (heal and toe). I do this because it just feels natural to me, not because I think I gain anything from it. I could probably be faster if I just skipped gears.

You can actually brake harder while in neutral or with the clutch pushed in. Naturally, you would think engine braking would help to slow you down more, but it does not. Your brakes can slow you down faster than the engine can drop revs. When your car is in gear and you are braking, your brakes have to not only slow the car down, but also slow your engine down. If you are in neutral or depressing the clutch, the brakes only have to slow the car down thus giving you more stopping power.

Next time you are driving, try it out. It doesn't have to be on a track. Just come to a stop while in gear and while in neutral. You will notice the car will stop faster while in neutral. You don't even have to come to a stop to notice this. You will notice right away the brakes will slow the car down faster while in neutral.

 

I row because I'm frightenned of overreving

 

I'm on my BB so it may be hard to answer/clarify things and answer all the questions. I'm also in Vegas with little-no sleep so I've been a bit careless in my last post.

Clag: you are correct, the sychro spins up the input shaft (or down when upshifting) whenever a gear is selected. Yes with single-clutching it will be equal wear (or a better word: stress) on the synchros from letting the clutch out each time or leaving the clutch in when rowing through the gears. I somewhat confused that concept with double clutching rowing thru each gear vs. Single downshift/double-clutch and skipping gears.

Random comparison, its easier on the synchros to double clutch and skip gears than single clutch and row, and especially compared to single clutch and skip. -just read the TrackHQ thread.

I'm going to contradict myself and point out that engine braking CAN improve braking due to the often excessive front bias in many street cars. With that in mind, get it out of your mind and disregard it. It is hard to maximize the brakes while simultaneously use engine braking efficiently enough to improve braking and doing so without hurting your motor is even harder. Don't do it. Also DO Not brake with the clutch in or while in neutral. Just like when cornering and trailbraking into a corner, you want the rear tires hooked up to the motor -which gives you more control over the car.
Ill write more later


Billy

 

Perfectly clear. Thank-you for taking the time.

 

I skip gears and do a big heel-toe downshift whenever I late brake hard (like entering the Bowl CCW at SOWS or entering T2 at CW SOWS). Some people said it is a bad habit, but I'm glad someone agrees with me...

 

It's just natural for me and I've been doing it that way for a long time.

I don't think there is a wrong way to do this.

just a random thought...sequential boxes can't skip a gear and have to clutch in on the downshift.

 

Well it depends. If you are lead-foot stomping on the brakes without any finesse or trailing off the brakes properly, then it is easily possible to be upsetting the car by braking too aggressively or an abrupt pop-off the brakes.

There is a lot more to braking technique that just hitting the brake pedal. It is all about application, modulation, and trailing off the brakes. If you blindly stomp on the brakes and just ride on/rely on the ABS, then it isn't doing you much good in terms of learning how to improve your laptimes in the braking zones. So yes it can be a bad habit but just talking on a forum wont help too much. In-car footage would be better, but even then you can only tell so much. - This is why you hire an instructor like myself. Forum advice only goes so far (and that is very limited). Especially when you dont really know who you are getting advice from, the fact a lot is lost in translation through text, etc... While info like this thread can be very informative and help a lot compared to other less precise comments/threads, it is still greatly limited compared to working with someone who knows what they are doing in person.


Billy

 

I generally row it, letting the clutch out with each blip and gear shift. I just helps with my timing and also being in the appropriate gear for getting back on the throttle.

For the big skip shift, I would double clutch it to minimize wear on the synchros.

Sometimes (maybe oftentimes ), I'll mess up my timing a bit rowing on the footwork, and end up just double clutching it and putting it in the desired end gear.