Need strong brakes
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,026
Likes: 10
From: Israel
Need strong brakes
i'm very hard on brakes.
i never was completely satisfied with brakes.
the best i had were Axxis Ultimates on Mazda NA (light car)
i've got Hawk HP+ completely faded.
Stoptech pads were very poor for me (reasonable fading but stoping power not great and not consistent).
now i've got EBC Yellow stuff and they're nice on cold but pedal gets spongy very quickly and starts sinking deeper and deeper on every braking.
i'm sure a "normal" person would be pretty happy with them but i'm very hard on brakes....
so i'm looking for not fading and consistent feel pads.
noise and dust are not very important to me.
current setup:
- oem brake disks
- challenge brake lines
- LHT master brake cylinder brace
- Valvoline 5.1 brake fluid
- stagered 215/245 wheels
- toyo r1r tires
thinking about Cobalt XR2.
which Cobalts to put on rear?
whithout cooling ducts will they toast stock calipers?
Thanks!!!
i never was completely satisfied with brakes.
the best i had were Axxis Ultimates on Mazda NA (light car)
i've got Hawk HP+ completely faded.
Stoptech pads were very poor for me (reasonable fading but stoping power not great and not consistent).
now i've got EBC Yellow stuff and they're nice on cold but pedal gets spongy very quickly and starts sinking deeper and deeper on every braking.
i'm sure a "normal" person would be pretty happy with them but i'm very hard on brakes....
so i'm looking for not fading and consistent feel pads.
noise and dust are not very important to me.
current setup:
- oem brake disks
- challenge brake lines
- LHT master brake cylinder brace
- Valvoline 5.1 brake fluid
- stagered 215/245 wheels
- toyo r1r tires
thinking about Cobalt XR2.
which Cobalts to put on rear?
whithout cooling ducts will they toast stock calipers?
Thanks!!!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 14
From: Edwards AFB
My set up is
Powerslot Cryo-treated front disks
Powerslot rear disks
Challenge brake lines
ATE Super Blue fluid
non-staggered 255x40
Nitto NT05
I'm running Cobalt XR2(Front) and XR5(Rear)
last time I was at the track with ~94F with hard braking no fade or degradation to brake feel.
I checked my rotors and calipers when i got home and they were all good, no cracks & no deep grooves, pistons and seals are still good.
Powerslot Cryo-treated front disks
Powerslot rear disks
Challenge brake lines
ATE Super Blue fluid
non-staggered 255x40
Nitto NT05
I'm running Cobalt XR2(Front) and XR5(Rear)
last time I was at the track with ~94F with hard braking no fade or degradation to brake feel.
I checked my rotors and calipers when i got home and they were all good, no cracks & no deep grooves, pistons and seals are still good.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,026
Likes: 10
From: Israel
good info.
i just need to see what is right rear pad to match with staggered tyres....
BTW - just saw this:
if it's the pedal getting longer, it isn't due to pad fade, it's the fluid.
maybe after all this Valvoline brake fluid is not that great and my problems is caused by it?.....
i just need to see what is right rear pad to match with staggered tyres....
BTW - just saw this:
if it's the pedal getting longer, it isn't due to pad fade, it's the fluid.
maybe after all this Valvoline brake fluid is not that great and my problems is caused by it?.....
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,380
Likes: 0
From: Arizona
That brake fluid probably isn't up to the challenge. There are many superior.
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2925418
Replace fluid once a year. Bleed at installation and then after you first hard session on the brakes and then leave alone until the year is up. Worked for a Speed world Challenge team and has worked for me.
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2925418
Replace fluid once a year. Bleed at installation and then after you first hard session on the brakes and then leave alone until the year is up. Worked for a Speed world Challenge team and has worked for me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time to post up the list again for 2011 because there is some new product and some updated pricing since the last list.
Newest member is Performance Friction RH665 DOT4 fluid with guaranteed minimum dry boiling point of 323C and wet BP of 195C, from Performance Friction Brakes (UK) Ltd.
http://www.performancefrictionbrakes....pdf?pageId=47
and Brembo HTC 64T racing only fluid with a dry boiling point of 335C (635F)
Prospeed RS683 with a 683F has the highest dry boiling point and also the highest wet boiling point of 439F:
sold here: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...asp?RecID=1036
and how about this for high tech brake fluid PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335 :
"Totally reliable brake fluid that combines a boiling point so high it’s in another dimension with durability and maintainability. You know it’s time to change your G-four 335 brake fluid, which can reach close to 300C, when the color changes from green to crystal clear."
http://www.project-mu.co.jp/en/produ...her_fluid.html
...so you know when it's time to change it. and at about $22.50 per 0.5 litres, it is the best deal having the second highest dry boiling point. Not that much more than the el cheapo stuff I've been using for years, Motul RBF 600.
Lately I'm on AP Racing PRF 660, which seems very, very good.
ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT(some prices from my 2010 list and some are updated, check with your favorite supplier, and look for case prices so you can change it often):
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:???F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1C (new since 2006)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.799/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:536F -- WET:388F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($13.99/1L)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1 (pre 2006) ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($7.95/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:572F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600 ($19.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TBR-1 ($11.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($74.99/1.0L 0R 33.8 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:421F --- MOTUL RBF 600 ($15.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($19.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:608F -- WET:390F --- AP RACING PRF660 ($29.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610 ($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:613F -- WET:424F --- ENDLESS RF-650 ($33.00/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:617F -- WET:399F --- MOTUL RBF 660 ($28.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:617F -- WET:383F --- PFC RH665($28.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:622F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TSR-1 ($17.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:626F -- WET:???F --- FERODO FSF050 Super Race Brake Fluid ($39.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($18.99/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
DRY:635F -- WET:???F --- BREMBO HTC 64T ($32.00/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
DRY:635F -- WET:430F --- PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335 ($45.00/1.0L 33.8 OZ)
DRY:683F -- WET:439F --- PROSPEED RS683 ($39.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:
DRY:500F -- WET:???F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1C (new since 2006)
DRY:590F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TBR-1 ($11.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:622F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TSR-1 ($17.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:626F -- WET:???F --- FERODO FSF050 Super Race Brake Fluid (new since 2009)
DRY:635F -- WET:???F --- BREMBO HTC 64T
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:617F -- WET:383F --- PFC RH665 (new since 2011)
DRY:536F -- WET:388F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:608F -- WET:390F --- AP RACING PRF660
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS
DRY:617F -- WET:399F --- MOTUL RBF 660
DRY:572F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600
DRY:593F -- WET:421F --- MOTUL RBF 600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610
DRY:613F -- WET:424F --- ENDLESS RF-650
DRY:635F -- WET:430F --- PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335
DRY:683F -- WET:439F --- PROSPEED RS683 (new since 2010)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
Some fluids on the manufacturer's web site did not specify wet boiling point, so I used the relevant DOT 3 value.
Water absorption:
DOT 3: This brake fluid has a glycol base with additives. It is clear to amber in color. It is hygroscopic (meaning it absorbs moisture) and has a minimum dry boiling point of 401F (205C) minimum and a minimum wet boiling point of 284F (140C). It will absorb 1 to 2 percent of water per year depending on climate and operating conditions.
Castrol SRF remains as always the Wet boiling champ. I don't know of any other new ones.
Now of course boiling temp is not the only thing to consider, as compressibility, water absorption rate, recovery, viscosity index, etc all play a part. But without a brake dyno, that data is hard to get.
See some good info in the previous list thread: http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1788969
Here is an interesting chart of brake fluid compressibility: http://www.hrpworld.com/client_image...pdf_4745_5.pdf
Time to post up the list again for 2011 because there is some new product and some updated pricing since the last list.
Newest member is Performance Friction RH665 DOT4 fluid with guaranteed minimum dry boiling point of 323C and wet BP of 195C, from Performance Friction Brakes (UK) Ltd.
http://www.performancefrictionbrakes....pdf?pageId=47
and Brembo HTC 64T racing only fluid with a dry boiling point of 335C (635F)
Prospeed RS683 with a 683F has the highest dry boiling point and also the highest wet boiling point of 439F:
sold here: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...asp?RecID=1036
and how about this for high tech brake fluid PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335 :
"Totally reliable brake fluid that combines a boiling point so high it’s in another dimension with durability and maintainability. You know it’s time to change your G-four 335 brake fluid, which can reach close to 300C, when the color changes from green to crystal clear."
http://www.project-mu.co.jp/en/produ...her_fluid.html
...so you know when it's time to change it. and at about $22.50 per 0.5 litres, it is the best deal having the second highest dry boiling point. Not that much more than the el cheapo stuff I've been using for years, Motul RBF 600.
Lately I'm on AP Racing PRF 660, which seems very, very good.
ARRANGED BY DRY BOILING POINT(some prices from my 2010 list and some are updated, check with your favorite supplier, and look for case prices so you can change it often):
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:???F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1C (new since 2006)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.799/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:536F -- WET:388F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($13.99/1L)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1 (pre 2006) ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($7.95/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:572F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600 ($19.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TBR-1 ($11.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($74.99/1.0L 0R 33.8 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:421F --- MOTUL RBF 600 ($15.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($19.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:608F -- WET:390F --- AP RACING PRF660 ($29.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610 ($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:613F -- WET:424F --- ENDLESS RF-650 ($33.00/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:617F -- WET:399F --- MOTUL RBF 660 ($28.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:617F -- WET:383F --- PFC RH665($28.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:622F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TSR-1 ($17.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:626F -- WET:???F --- FERODO FSF050 Super Race Brake Fluid ($39.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($18.99/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
DRY:635F -- WET:???F --- BREMBO HTC 64T ($32.00/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
DRY:635F -- WET:430F --- PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335 ($45.00/1.0L 33.8 OZ)
DRY:683F -- WET:439F --- PROSPEED RS683 ($39.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
ARRANGED BY WET BOILING POINT:
DRY:500F -- WET:???F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1C (new since 2006)
DRY:590F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TBR-1 ($11.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:622F -- WET:???F --- TILTON TSR-1 ($17.95/0.25L) (new since 2006)
DRY:626F -- WET:???F --- FERODO FSF050 Super Race Brake Fluid (new since 2009)
DRY:635F -- WET:???F --- BREMBO HTC 64T
DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:617F -- WET:383F --- PFC RH665 (new since 2011)
DRY:536F -- WET:388F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200
DRY:608F -- WET:390F --- AP RACING PRF660
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS
DRY:617F -- WET:399F --- MOTUL RBF 660
DRY:572F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600
DRY:593F -- WET:421F --- MOTUL RBF 600
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610
DRY:613F -- WET:424F --- ENDLESS RF-650
DRY:635F -- WET:430F --- PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335
DRY:683F -- WET:439F --- PROSPEED RS683 (new since 2010)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF
Some fluids on the manufacturer's web site did not specify wet boiling point, so I used the relevant DOT 3 value.
Water absorption:
DOT 3: This brake fluid has a glycol base with additives. It is clear to amber in color. It is hygroscopic (meaning it absorbs moisture) and has a minimum dry boiling point of 401F (205C) minimum and a minimum wet boiling point of 284F (140C). It will absorb 1 to 2 percent of water per year depending on climate and operating conditions.
Castrol SRF remains as always the Wet boiling champ. I don't know of any other new ones.
Now of course boiling temp is not the only thing to consider, as compressibility, water absorption rate, recovery, viscosity index, etc all play a part. But without a brake dyno, that data is hard to get.
See some good info in the previous list thread: http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1788969
Here is an interesting chart of brake fluid compressibility: http://www.hrpworld.com/client_image...pdf_4745_5.pdf
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
good info.
i just need to see what is right rear pad to match with staggered tyres....
BTW - just saw this:
if it's the pedal getting longer, it isn't due to pad fade, it's the fluid.
maybe after all this Valvoline brake fluid is not that great and my problems is caused by it?.....
i just need to see what is right rear pad to match with staggered tyres....
BTW - just saw this:
if it's the pedal getting longer, it isn't due to pad fade, it's the fluid.
maybe after all this Valvoline brake fluid is not that great and my problems is caused by it?.....
Not to say that it isn't fluid that's going bad on you.
Regarding pads, I've had great success with Carbotech XP8 and XP10. If you have good enough pads and *are* approaching fluid boiling, you might try Ti backing plates. I got a set for my new 500hp RX-7 from http://hardbrakes.com/
I shoulda taken pics after running them on track. The side backing the pad was blued/purpled from heat, while the caliper piston side was just a uniform straw/gold color. I *think* they should knock down fluid temp a bit, might be all you need.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,026
Likes: 10
From: Israel
OK OK - thx for straightening this out for me.
i change fluid at least once a year.
this Valvoline is just 1 month old - so before i go for extbarreme track pads i will change th fluid to "usual" RBF600 and see what happens.
make sense?
Dan's brake heat shields also sound nice - i probably will get them.
what about stock brake disk heatshield?
i saw people do some mods or even completeley remove them.
does it help to cool down caliper?
any possible heat damage to suspension components?
i change fluid at least once a year.
this Valvoline is just 1 month old - so before i go for extbarreme track pads i will change th fluid to "usual" RBF600 and see what happens.
make sense?
Dan's brake heat shields also sound nice - i probably will get them.
what about stock brake disk heatshield?
i saw people do some mods or even completeley remove them.
does it help to cool down caliper?
any possible heat damage to suspension components?
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Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,026
Likes: 10
From: Israel
we only have "mini track" - but i do fade there.
mostly i do snake runs and mountains drivings - this time i've got a fade half way UPHILL
which was really surprising.
so it really looks like Valvoline is to be blamed.....
mostly i do snake runs and mountains drivings - this time i've got a fade half way UPHILL
which was really surprising.
so it really looks like Valvoline is to be blamed.....
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 33,838
Likes: 23
From: Sunshine Coast - England UK
The best discs and pads you will ever put on this car are Dixcel racing imo. I never hear them mentioned on here, but a lt of us use them in the Uk on track. You will never get them to fade and they make my GT3 brakes feel like chocolate!
I've used them at the Ring, Spa, Donington, Rockingham etc.... Amazing power.
They are used in Japanese endurance racing.
Not cheap, but the best IMO!
Dixon at DMS has some in stock ATM.
I've used them at the Ring, Spa, Donington, Rockingham etc.... Amazing power.
They are used in Japanese endurance racing.
Not cheap, but the best IMO!
Dixon at DMS has some in stock ATM.