StopTech BBK : Which 17x9 wheels fit?
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,606
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From: Tallahassee, Florida
I highly doubt the weight difference is that noticeable between the RPF1s and TSW Nurburgrings. Even if it is, an extra inch of width will outweigh it. The nurburgrings are also cheaper, so thats another factor to consider.
I went with the square TSW Nurburgring setup and haven't looked back. Reasonably lightweight and strong, cheap, 17x9, that fits over a Stoptech BBK? Seems like a no brainer to me...
I've seen a lot of S2000s autocrossing with them as well and have heard no complaints.
I went with the square TSW Nurburgring setup and haven't looked back. Reasonably lightweight and strong, cheap, 17x9, that fits over a Stoptech BBK? Seems like a no brainer to me...
I've seen a lot of S2000s autocrossing with them as well and have heard no complaints.
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Joined: Apr 2011
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From: Pleasanton / Chico
strength is more important than weight...to a certain extent. Many non forged lightweight wheels tend to be weaker, not only do they bend easier during an off or impact, the also deform slightly under load which reduces contact patch and static camber. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=479110
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: San Deigo
Originally Posted by markhs2' timestamp='1347470813' post='22006670
[quote name='turbo8765' timestamp='1347463505' post='22006330']
[quote name='markhs2' timestamp='1347422518' post='22005484']
These Volk CE28 are made specifically for the S2K and to clear BBK's including the Stoptech.
This wheel and size is what you want to run for nonstaggered track appliction. You do not want 17x9 it is too narrow for track use if you are running 255's.
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/976...e28n-17x10-45/
[quote name='markhs2' timestamp='1347422518' post='22005484']
These Volk CE28 are made specifically for the S2K and to clear BBK's including the Stoptech.
This wheel and size is what you want to run for nonstaggered track appliction. You do not want 17x9 it is too narrow for track use if you are running 255's.
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/976...e28n-17x10-45/
If you are going to spend the money to go to the track 17x10 is best:
* It is a proven fact that 17x10's will turn significantly faster lap times. This has been verified through datalogging by a number of consistently fast drivers on this forum and elsewhere.
* If you are buying new wheels save time and money and get the best size and brand from the beginning.
* You can by the 17x9 RPF1's then after a few weeks or months of tracking when they break and/or bend, you can buy the the the wheels you should have bought at first.
Ask the guys that track and have already gone through the 17x9 wheels and the weak wheels.
[/quote]
doesn't make sense intuitively that a 255 is faster on a 10" wheel than a 9" wheel. all things being equal a 10" wheel is going to be heavier and have worse steering response. would love to see the data on that if you have it. was the change in wheel width the only variable in the comparison? no other changes to the car, tires, or conditions?
i've also never seen/heard of an RPF1 breaking. are you saying that RPF1s are weak or 17x9 are weak? what do you suggest for a stronger wheel?
[/quote]
There is intuition (guessing) and there are facts. I prefer to go by the facts based on data from pro race teams and other reliable sources.
RPF1's in the Road Racing application bend with regularity ask the serious track guys that have run them. Autox may be different.
^^^ rpf1s are notoriously weak and bend and crack at the track quite often (bend more than crack). If you want to stick with a cheaper cast wheel, got for the NT03+M in 17x9.5 +44. They're a lot stronger and are sized better for 255s. Another stong cast wheel is the rp03.
As far as 17x10s being faster, a little bit of stretch is good. It stiffens up the side wall and improves both feel and response (due to less sidewall flex).
All the major race teams run stretched tires. Dtm, super gt, and lemans lmp1 cars are all moving to wider rims, but not necessarily tires.
A number of s2k challenge guys have done the comparisons. As far as everyone in STR running 17x9s, it's because it's the widest wheel that you're allowed to run and, no fender mods allowed. However, the next class up (bsp??) Are all running 17x10s to even be somewhat competitive at the national level.
As far as 17x10s being faster, a little bit of stretch is good. It stiffens up the side wall and improves both feel and response (due to less sidewall flex).
All the major race teams run stretched tires. Dtm, super gt, and lemans lmp1 cars are all moving to wider rims, but not necessarily tires.
A number of s2k challenge guys have done the comparisons. As far as everyone in STR running 17x9s, it's because it's the widest wheel that you're allowed to run and, no fender mods allowed. However, the next class up (bsp??) Are all running 17x10s to even be somewhat competitive at the national level.
The lower lap times for the 10" over the 9" wheel and superiority of a stretched tire has been verified in professional racing and other track competition events including time attack and S2K challenge. This has been verified by very consistent drivers and the only variable was the wheel width.
949 racing has done excellent back to back tests on wider rims and stretched tires.
17x9's or other narrow rims are only run to comply with class rules restricting wheel width and disallowing fender modification.
Professional Racing Teams always use a rim allowing a stretched sidewall unless the rules restrict rim width and in that case they usually use the widest tire they can get on the specified rim. This is not optimal but they want to get the most rubber on the road in spite of the narrow rim.
Keep in mind that they are using racing slicks with very stiff sidewalls. The advantage of stretching street or an R Comp tire sidewall is even greater.
The Volk CE28 17x10 +45 weight 16.5 lbs is one of the lightest and strongest go here:
https://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/976...#entry22008898
Joined: Aug 2010
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^^^ yep, people in n/a miatas have done testing on a 225 rs3 fitted to an 8" vs 9" 949 6ulr rim. That being the only difference, the 9" is faster.
949 even makes a 15x10 rim. The disadvantages of weight are out weighed (hehehe, pun) by the added grip and response. Such a low torque and hp car as an n/a miata still benefits from a 15x10 vs an 8 and 9.
The only racing body to have gone narrower is F1 - but that's because they're trying to slow the cars down, hence the smaller wings and less aero also.
Lemans LMP1 cars are even running reverse stagger on stretched front tires with a 14.75 wheel up front and a 14" to 14.5" wheel in the rear.
Obviously, if you can afford it, run mark's wheel. If not in your budget, your best bet for a wider, strong cast wheel that will clear a stoptech bbk is the NT03+M in 17x9.5 +44. I'd love to pick up a set of those 17x10 ce28ns without the concave (pure function - they clear bbks
), but at this point, I can't even afford cast wheels... LOL
949 even makes a 15x10 rim. The disadvantages of weight are out weighed (hehehe, pun) by the added grip and response. Such a low torque and hp car as an n/a miata still benefits from a 15x10 vs an 8 and 9.
The only racing body to have gone narrower is F1 - but that's because they're trying to slow the cars down, hence the smaller wings and less aero also.
Lemans LMP1 cars are even running reverse stagger on stretched front tires with a 14.75 wheel up front and a 14" to 14.5" wheel in the rear.
Obviously, if you can afford it, run mark's wheel. If not in your budget, your best bet for a wider, strong cast wheel that will clear a stoptech bbk is the NT03+M in 17x9.5 +44. I'd love to pick up a set of those 17x10 ce28ns without the concave (pure function - they clear bbks
), but at this point, I can't even afford cast wheels... LOL
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 14,697
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From: Toronto
I highly doubt the weight difference is that noticeable between the RPF1s and TSW Nurburgrings. Even if it is, an extra inch of width will outweigh it. The nurburgrings are also cheaper, so thats another factor to consider.
I went with the square TSW Nurburgring setup and haven't looked back. Reasonably lightweight and strong, cheap, 17x9, that fits over a Stoptech BBK? Seems like a no brainer to me...
I've seen a lot of S2000s autocrossing with them as well and have heard no complaints.
I went with the square TSW Nurburgring setup and haven't looked back. Reasonably lightweight and strong, cheap, 17x9, that fits over a Stoptech BBK? Seems like a no brainer to me...
I've seen a lot of S2000s autocrossing with them as well and have heard no complaints.
luckily I have until next season. I would love those group buy CE28s but they will need a fender flare.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 899
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From: San Francisco, CA
well, you didn't explain the effect the wheels have on the tires! just saying bigger wheels are faster doesn't make sense. the width of the wheel changing the dynamic of the tire to make it faster does make sense.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 323
Likes: 10
From: Worcester, MA
I have thousands of track miles on multiple sets of RPF1s on several different cars. I've never bent a wheel. The only wheels I've ever seen bend, break or crack at the track have been Rotas, 6ULR's and OEM Mazda wheels (one Miata and one FD RX7, both snapped the spokes running r-comps on very old factory wheels).
Joined: Jun 2006
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I have thousands of track miles on multiple sets of RPF1s on several different cars. I've never bent a wheel. The only wheels I've ever seen bend, break or crack at the track have been Rotas, 6ULR's and OEM Mazda wheels (one Miata and one FD RX7, both snapped the spokes running r-comps on very old factory wheels).
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 652
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From: San Deigo
Here is a very good explanation of what the JWL test standards are and how Ray's who makes Volk wheels and other cast wheels goes beyond those standards. Some of their test are double the JWL standard. They also add a number of their own tests not included in JWL.
http://rays-msc.com/html/jwl.html
This is why Pro racing teams use forged wheels. They can't afford not to. Unless of course, as in some of the lower racing series, they are sponsored by a company that is promoting and specifies they use a particular wheel in which case they have many spares ready to go.
A cast wheel of the same size as a forged wheel will always have substantially less strength and if it's the same weight the strength difference is significantly greater.
A cast wheel will flex more than a forged wheel which will effect the contact patch and more importantly will reduce its strength significantly more over it's use life. Especially in a road race track application.
http://rays-msc.com/html/jwl.html
This is why Pro racing teams use forged wheels. They can't afford not to. Unless of course, as in some of the lower racing series, they are sponsored by a company that is promoting and specifies they use a particular wheel in which case they have many spares ready to go.
A cast wheel of the same size as a forged wheel will always have substantially less strength and if it's the same weight the strength difference is significantly greater.
A cast wheel will flex more than a forged wheel which will effect the contact patch and more importantly will reduce its strength significantly more over it's use life. Especially in a road race track application.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 672
Likes: 3
All else being equal, a forged wheel is stronger than a cast wheel of similar dimensions and weight- true
An rpf1 is of more than adequate strength and durability to handle years of regular track use by the vast majority of readers of s2ki.com- true
A 10" wheel is "more optimal" than a 9" wheel for a 255 tire- according to markhs2's often referenced but never published data- true
The vast majority of readers of s2ki.com will have many limiting factors which limit performance to a greater extent than a 255 on a 9" wheel- true
Compliance of rubber bushings affects dynamic alignment much, much, much more than distortion of a cast wheel- true
An rpf1 is of more than adequate strength and durability to handle years of regular track use by the vast majority of readers of s2ki.com- true
A 10" wheel is "more optimal" than a 9" wheel for a 255 tire- according to markhs2's often referenced but never published data- true
The vast majority of readers of s2ki.com will have many limiting factors which limit performance to a greater extent than a 255 on a 9" wheel- true
Compliance of rubber bushings affects dynamic alignment much, much, much more than distortion of a cast wheel- true