hi all,

i posted a message similar to this one on the honda-acura site, but believe it belongs more here than there. so if you've seen this, forgive me.

this is my delimma, if you can call it that. i currently have a 98 m3 and a 99 subaru impreza with a low pressure turbo. the m3 is primarily a touring car that also has seen some solo time, and the scooby is the riceboy toy with all the whizbang stuff on it (primarily prodrive) and is the car i'm willing to drive near at ability's limit at the track since its cheaper to mend.

after my last track time i got to thinking about sorting out my cars basically into two distinct ones: a streetable pure sports car and a good allrounder. the one i need your advice with is the sports car.

to me a sports car is raw, naturally aspirated, high revving and lightweight. the only cars i can think of are a porsche gt3, a 95 m3 ltw, the s2000 and the lotus elise. the porsche is more or less out of the question for the difficulty of getting one now plus the cost of federalization. the elise will nearly double the price of the s2k for, what i understand, is marginally better performance...the m3 ltw is still not all that light and raw. so it is basically the s2k that's on the radar screen right now.

i need to know a certain few things from the guys that have tracked it (or if you know someone who has, please point me to them).
- can the brakes deal with the repeated heavy usage
- does the suspension sloppy up at the bushings after being beaten on
- is there a rollbar out there that fits under the softtop and still is tall enough for a 6'1" guy
- are there issues with the oil pickup (m3s have issues because of the engine tilt)
- are there issues with fuel pickup during hard cornering and less than half a tank
- are there any improvements to the chassis that are deemed favorable for tracking the car
- is there a car i missed on my list of pure sports cars

i really would appreciate any input at all regarding this, and look forward to perhaps joining your rank.

thanks
bassem

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bassem
[B]...after my last track time i got to thinking about sorting out my cars basically into two distinct ones: a streetable pure sports car and a good allrounder.

 

I'm new at this with an S2K, but have been doing Open Track" type events for 21 years....

- can the brakes deal with the repeated heavy usage

The stock pads are just ok, and the brakes are very well balanced. For serious tracks (I "grew up" at the 'Glen), I have a lot of issues with the overall car, and the brakes definitily won't make it for a serious open track car. They need 100% replacement all around, and there are no solutions ont he market for the rear brakes.

- does the suspension sloppy up at the bushings after being beaten on

I've not even hit 5k miles yet, but I can say that the stock bushings are up to the task (unlike many other cars I've had or driven). There is a replacement set availabel in the aftermarket.

- is there a rollbar out there that fits under the softtop and still is tall enough for a 6'1" guy

That is my #1 issue with this car, I'm 5'11" and don't fit "under" the hoops. There is a hardtop available ($3500 US), and that would technically solve the rules but not provide any real protection.

- are there issues with the oil pickup (m3s have issues because of the engine tilt)

I've been wondering about this, I am very familiar wiuth the M3 issue. The stock engine does have an excellent oil system and baffling. Ther eis an aftermarket pan available, and I've been wondering why.

- are there issues with fuel pickup during hard cornering and less than half a tank

Nope, I've gone down to a quarter tank and no issues. However, since the car is so perfectly balanced, I try to keep well over a half tank to keep it that way.

- are there any improvements to the chassis that are deemed favorable for tracking the car

Various braces exist, but that's usual for all cars. There are some questions as to sway bars, sprinhg rates, and shocks. All very expensive.

- is there a car i missed on my list of pure sports cars

I wouldn't touch a 'vette right now. Besides severe temp problems with the transmission (leading to 2nd gear synchro issues), the car is being replaced with a new chassis (C6) for 2003. That would give you only 1 good season with the car, and then a huge loss to trade up.

As for the M3, great driovers car, but it has too many handling quirks in it's last iteration (I've seen several mysteriously end up backwards crushed against a all) and the new ones are so expensive that there are other alternatives with much better potential.

See my site for more info on my one outing with my S2K so far. I've been doing these events for so long, and instructing for 6 years, so I've driven a ton of stuff on the track. One important issue you have to address is how many mods you want to make - even to the point of having a heavily mod'd car and all that the baggaage that implies. If you want a car with only minor mods that will go very very fast with minimal work, the late Supra Twin Turbo is the way to go. It has fantastic balance and poise. If you want a car with minimal to no mods, and don't mind not having the fastest car there, the S2K is the way to go.

 

I'm curious what led you to this conclusion. What makes you think that an S2000 with stock calipers, fresh rotors, race pads and ducted cooling wouldn't hold up to a "serious track like the 'Glen"? The guy is looking for a highly competent sports car that can be tracked. Not an all-out race car.

 

IMHO: big track, and if you want to go fast and do well, bigger brakes than this would be necessary.

Sure, this car has fine brakes, but they are not world-class brakes and they will not last up to a full weekend on a track like this with extreme braking needs and major elevation changes.

The only answer to his original question is "it all depends". On:
- how much $$$ you have
- how serious you are
- how much car you want
- what kind of tracks you have or intend to travel too
- what kind of garage space you have for all the parts swapping
- what kind of local emissions checks you have to pass
- what kind of spouse situation you are in
- your kids needs for new shoes
- how much time you have
- etc etc

The S2K is a fantastic all-around car. But Open Track cars are becoming much more serious these days, approaching or exceeding race cars from only a few years back. My Cobra has 13" rotors and 4-piston Brembo calipers up front, although they aren't the all-out wild models (14" is next).

So, IMHO brakes on the S2K are lacking. Compare it to a Boxster S - we can arguabley go around some tracks faster or nearly as much, but you can't beat the 4-piston brakes on the S (and the rear vented brakes would be nice too) for longevity.

 

thanks guys for your responses so far. basically i want a car that minimal mods will make it highly track competent. i'll jump on your site (jwfisher) and take a look right after this.

my mods list are really limited to: roll protection, 5pt harnesses (anyone fit this on their s2k) and brakes. i've done the overkill "this and that" on the scooby and yes, it made my last instructor (who drove an m3) chuckle in surprise to the amount of poise and grip...but it just was, in a way, too good and easy to drive that i feel that i'm no longer improving. besides i've realised that my "internal g-meter sensitivity" will improve better with a car that you truely have to balance with your right foot.

i also know that some of the events i've been to do not accept hardtops as rollover protection and require a dedicated roll hoop. and to be honest i feel better with proper protection. i'm guessing the suggested rollbars/cages fit under the softtop, right?

thanks again guys,
bassem

 

I can add/agree there is NO issue with fuel pickup on a low tank. I Auto-X'd last weekend and got maybe too low on gas -- I filled up about 1 mile from the track and figure I was down to 0.3 gallon! I had zero trouble on the track, including a long fast sweeper (to the right, if it matters).

The only thing that bothers me is my fuel gauge is too non-linear at the bottom. The last three bars go away in a hurry.

 

- can the brakes deal with the repeated heavy usage

Another vote for No. At the least you'll want to replace pads but would also suggest replacing lines and adding ducting.

- does the suspension sloppy up at the bushings after being beaten on

Another vote for No, though time will tell (good news is that there are aftermarket replacements if so).

- is there a rollbar out there that fits under the softtop and still is tall enough for a 6'1" guy

Cusco or get one custom made. The Mugen one doesn't fit under the convertible top.

- are there issues with the oil pickup (m3s have issues because of the engine tilt)

There have been comments about his in regards to Road Atlanta (see previous threads about blue smoke at that track). Aftermarket solutions do exist. But it seems that it's only an issue at high speed banked tracks.

- are there issues with fuel pickup during hard cornering and less than half a tank

Again, another vote for No.

- are there any improvements to the chassis that are deemed favorable for tracking the car

Yes. Spoon XBrace. Depending on what sort of track and what sort of balance you're used to it might be desirable to go with a larger front bar as well. Obviously you can add more to this list if you get into suspension mods...

- is there a car i missed on my list of pure sports cars

BMW M Coupe. Ugly as all hell, but 321 HP in a pretty lightweight body. Better time at the 'ring than the S2000.

 

a streetable pure sports car
to me a sports car is raw, naturally aspirated, high revving and lightweight.


- does the suspension sloppy up at the bushings after being beaten on
Spoon and mugen got some harder bushing for S2000 but I doubt we need that.

- is there a rollbar out there that fits under the softtop and still is tall enough for a 6'1" guy

Cusco and mugen made roll bar and cage that can be used with the softtop. Better get a lower mounted racing bucket seat if you are 6'1".

- is there a car i missed on my list of pure sports cars

Don't forget the caterham super 7,even the superlight model has 0-60 in 4.XX seconds.
The new blackhawk model with a Honda bike engine has a 3.6 0-60 times.
I would call that a pure sportcar.

 

Ok, I want that.