Any interest in a high quality hardtop?
 

As you likely know, buying a factory hardtop in North America is expensive. I ended up buying 2 and the third one came with the car.

If there is a new option for a carbon fiber factory style hardtop with new hardware and great fitment like factory, what are important factors that would get you to buy one?

If there’s interest and alignment, I might explore what’s possible.

Quality materials, 100% made in USA, lighter than factory, great fitment. I see these as must haves.

Price would likely be high. How important is shipping and paint?

Or would you say owners willing to pay a premium already have hardtops?

Looking forward to your feedback!

Pay a premium over what? OEM tops are 5-6k with hardware included right now. I think you need to have a price point lower than that. Everyone who still doesn't have a hardtop typically wants OEM quality but doesn't want to pay $5k for it. Many are the same people that didn't want to pay $3.5k 5 years ago.

Shipping is definitely necessary or you're limited to a few hours of wherever you're having them made. I don't think you need to offer paint options but a nice clear coat would be good. Offering paint would introduce a lot of issues for QC like when a customer complains the NFR you shipped doesn't perfectly match their 20 y/o car. Paint work is better done at the local level. Idk much about carbon finishes though and I'm not sure if bare or clear coated is the expectation/norm.

Overall, the only tops that people seem to consider consistently high quality/fit is OEM and Mugen. All others have had some complaints. Others are available in OEM style, carbon finished too so you'd need to outcompete them in quality and/or price.

Will you use Honda glass? Defrosted? Will it fit the interior pieces and where would you source them?

I'd love for there to be a cheaper option but I think there's a reason why they're not available yet. I'm guessing that we're getting close to the tipping point where OEM are worth so much that someone can finally enter the market but idk if we're there yet. I've been complaining for years that they're too expensive before just sucking it up and buying one last year at market value.

Great perspective, very helpful, and thanks for sharing.

By premium, I meant higher price than factory ones. Since I would want to target higher quality and lighter weight. But I realize that would be a very significant percentage of the cost of the car. Maybe the prices of the cars have to double to support such a thing.

I have not looked at. Is the Honda glass still available? If it is, that’s likely the best route. But like many other parts, maybe it’s no longer available?

What would be higher quality? Without an interior and nice finishings, I think that might be a hard sell. I do know that most of the interior parts are discontinued. Lighter weight kinda matters but I don't think most people are that much of weenies about it. The ones that are don't usually care about creaks and rattles and would be happy getting the cheapest POS they can gut.

Idk about the Honda glass. I think it'd be great to have another player enter selling OEM equivalent tops and undercutting market value. I'm just not sure what $$ the OEM tops have to hit for the quality to be there and undercut them.

Not a question of if I'd buy one -- I wouldn't -- but more of "would I invest in this project" with all it's startup, production, and marketing costs. Is there any demand for a hardtop? Turn a convertible into a coupe? Hasn't been one -- ever! Hardtop for the S2000 is a definite niche item for a niche car that no one bought when the cars were new hence the scarcity of OEM hardtops in today's market and the existing aftermarket roofs fill the demand that's left.

-- Chuck

^Disagree. There is a market for them, clearly. This is not the first post this year about bringing more hardtops to the market because multiple people have concluded that the current offerings don't suit their need.

The issue is that current aftermarket tops aren't meeting market demand (Spoiler, it's quality issues, go look at the other thread). The question is: Given the current aftermarket tops aren't meeting market demand, is there a way to meet the quality people desire at a price point they'd actually pay instead of buying the OEM top? The more the OEM tops go up in value, the more viable quality alternatives become. I'm not sure we've hit that tipping point yet but clearly the current aftermarket offerings are not filling the leftover demand.

Positive responses to this thread will provide an indicator of demand which I fear won't be enough to generate an additional aftermarket roof demand for the tiny S2000 market especially if it's more expensive than the current tops. Current quality appears to meet demand and current manufacturers don't see a market or they'd be available now. If you can hit the eBay price point of the Miata hard tops ($350 - $1,200) there may be a market. :) In effect the eBay Miata roof market indicates low demand for hard tops on another roadster.

The laws of supply and demand will be at work and in this case there is currently statistically No supply and No demand.

Seems like a good study project for a business college marketing course but as I typed this I got visions of Rodney Dangerfield.

-- Chuck

I agree with Chuck. Basically, I have no desire for a hardtop and I also think that few owners do.

And that is called an anecdote and projecting your views on others. I don't want a hardtop, therefore few owners do.

I do think you're right that the demand is limited but it does exist. If there were an OEM equivalent for <$4k right now, there is certainly demand. I also agree that if your profit margin is $300 per top and you sell 20 of them in a year, it's probably not worth the time and initial investment to get it up and running. That's a different problem than a lack of demand. I agree that there is virtually no demand for a "premium" top that exceeds the cost of an OEM top, especially one lacking a Mugen or Spoon label of authenticity.

In which case there would be plenty of tops to go around for those that want a top, and the prices would be going down not up. Got any more theories?

As far as current quality meeting demand for those that want one, read the thread about the "Vaikhari" top. There is no quality alternative to OEM. Jub is 100% correct. Too many people that want, and not enough people that want to pay. This is why no one has done what OP is suggesting.

I'm sure the "I bought a convertible not a coupe" crowd will show up shortly.

We're already here. :)

-- Chuck

Wrong again. Three's a crowd. :p

If the cost is higher then OEM hardtop then I wouldn't be interested. OEM is gold standard and if your hardtop is more expensive then OEM, it be DOA for me.

That's the perfect price for a sub-oem-quality aftermarket HT. Too bad the S2k is relatively super rare compared to the mass-produced Miata.

There is already this aftermarket OEM-like hardtop for about $3k. I want to say someone else was coming out with an even lower priced OEM aluminum knock off but of course now I can't find the post. Might've been a facebook group. I love the look of a hard top on these cars, especially the OEM. Still, I don't know if I really want to go that route as I'm not sure I really need it since I'm top down most of the time - even in 30 degree days.

EDIT - realize now it was the Vaikhari as mentioned in a previous post here.

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-mo...rdtop-1212759/

OEM hardtops are absolutely getting out of control....When I first bought my car roughly 5 years ago they were around 3-4k....It seems like recently in the past cfew years, $500 arbitrarily gets added to the price every 6 months or so....so now an OEM hardtop is around 6-7k....There's a Laguna blue one in the FS section right now asking $7500...and that's picked up. Complete lunacy if you ask me.

There is a certain cachet to oem top. It'll always have inherent value, especially as these cars go up in collector value.

I don't see a market for more expensive than used oem, regardless of quality.

As already mentioned, those that would find value in lighter than stock don't care so much about perfect fitment or nvh.

Those that want oem fit and nvh will also gravitate to oem authenticity. To capture some of this market will require near oem fit and nvh, and a compelling price that undercuts oem by enough they don't mind losing out on authenticity.

Others have tried to reach the near oem refinement and failed. Its apparently not an easy goal to achieve.

OEM Purity demands perfect original paint. No fair changing colors. There's an OEM hardtop currently for sale (here) at a (delusional?) asking of $9,000 (nine thousand). Defects and all. Be interesting what this sells for. Shipping?

-- Chuck

Mugen, Spoon, and Amuse hardtops all have oem fitment and quality and were all more expensive than the oem top until the last couple years. I’m referring to genuine/authentic tops, not the knockoff/replicas.

I definitely don’t agree with your sentiment about not caring about fitment and nvh, that’s a fairly stupid generalization to make. I had a Mugen (authentic) hardtop for 15 years with zero issues, and I have an oem HT.

To answer the OP’s question, yes there’s still a market, your quality has to be on par with oem, Mugen, and Amuse along with a pedigree as to why yours is expensive or else it’s just another replica top. I think we’ve got replicas covered.

Not really. I think my opinion is based on a fairly broad experience. I've owned my S2000 for nearly 19 years now and I know scores of owners and they know me. A few have hardtops and use them (of course the CR owners have to), a few more have hardtop but rarely if ever use them, but it's been my personal experience that many more owners do not want one. Sure, driving with the hardtop is nicer than driving with the soft top up but the S2000 makes for a less than desirable daily driver and travelling with a hardtop can be a pain in the ass.

This is a really stupid argument. If you were correct, there would not be multiple threads about people wanting hardtops. If you were correct, hardtops would be decreasing in value and not increasing. Increasing prices demonstrates that there is more demand than there is supply. I never said that every S owner wants a hardtop because I'm not projecting my desires onto others. The demand # is not every S2k owner. Just because people seldom use them doesn't mean they don't want them. Why don't they sell them then? Like I said before, they usually hold onto them until they sell the car.

I don't think there's a market for a *premium* hardtop above OEM value that doesn't have a Mugen or Spoon badge of authenticity. I think the supply of hardtops that undercut OEM prices but need to be spread across your chest to bend into the proper shape is already accounted for. I think there is demand for a hardtop that meets good NVH standards, weighs same as OEM, seals like OEM, and undercuts OEM prices by > $1k.

While I agree there isn't a market for a premium hardtop I disagree with the statement that there isn't demand for hardtops in general. I deleted my soft top and put on a hard and have several friends that did the same. I also know people that want a hardtop but can't afford one.

I personally bought this car (and my previous miatas) despite the fact it is a convertible, not because of it. There are not many two seat, rwd, double wishbone, fully adjustable alignment, and lsd equipped cars out there.

Listen to me now and believe me later, Scrub. No one ever said that there wasn't more demand than there were OEM hardtop out there. It's my opinion that the market, however, would be limited as more owners do not want one than do.

I have no issue if someone wants or buys an OEM hardtop. If someone wants one, knock yourself out and buy one if you can afford and justify it.

It's an internet car forum. You can state your beliefs. I'm stating my opinion. Take it or leave it. I don't care. But this has wandered off topic and I don't want to disrespect the OP.

For better or worse, the field of marketing requires making broad generalizations, which obviously do not apply to everyone.

In this case, my opinion is, generally, people that prioritize light weight hardtop are into track days, and for them its all about performance, thus fitment and nvh aren't even secondary they're tertiary.

As Alfred in one of the Batman movies sarcastically said, this will appeal to the billionaire spelunking, base jumping crowd.

I appreciate the different perspectives! Thank you.

My takeaways are,
- some S2000 owners love the convertible and have no interest in a hardtop.
- if one is prioritizing lightweight, it’s likely track use focused so fitment & nvh are less important.
- Mugen & Amuse makes great ones and the names have value for buyers.

I doubt I will find a path to produce at or above OEM quality for lower than market OEM hardtop prices.

There might be a handful of potential buyers. Likely not worth exploring (all 4 of mine have hardtops already). I was looking for ways to keep the S2000 passion going forever as it’s a truly special car and no more like it will be built by major manufacturers.

I agree with your takeaways from the previous comments. I bought my Mugen HT in 2011, directly from King Motorsports. I believe they are still available from this source in limited quantities. Then as now, Mugen produces a very limited number of the HT’s annually. If they sell out of that year’s production run, you’ll need to wait until the following year. They are still available new at around $4k with factory hardware, and an astounding fit and finish level. Mugen fiber-reinforced polymer tops require painting so there is that expense as well. I’m not sure the Mugen pure CF tops are still available. At $8k, that’s quite a stretch for most S2k owners. The current pricing on OEM tops make the genuine Mugen or Spoon Sports tops the best option IMO.

Edit: I forgot to mention that Mugen is OEM. Being the racing division of Honda, any parts produced by Mugen are OEM.

I believe that Mugen is a completely separate entity from Honda although they were founded by the son of Soichiro Honda and, I believe, work exclusively with Honda. They are not Honda Racing.

I’ll look into that, thanks for mentioning they may not be owned by Honda. I know Mugen was founded by S Honda’s son. Doesn’t Mugen make the F1 engines for Honda? f If the company is owned by Honda, then I’ll stick with my original statement about OEM. I’ll see what I can find out. Or I suppose I could just call King Motorsports. :)

Edit: Well I answered my own questions. Hirotoshi Honda (still the largest stockholder in Honda) owns Mugen Motorsports. Honda Inc. has no monetary interest or control over Mugen. Mugen makes racing engines for many entities, but primarily acts in collaboration with Honda, and as a staging ground for Honda racing engines. So Mugen parts are technically not OEM Honda.

OEM Miata hardtops sell for $1500-3000 these days, quickly. They’re ripoffs, just like S2000 hardtops but proportionally to how much less expensive the Miata is.

You really do not have to post about every topic! If you must, please do some research first.

One of my favorite Youtube channels for a while was JDM Masters and he was at a meet that had Mugen reps there. Just made me think of this video


Also there is always Honda Pro Jason

Thanks for sharing these great videos! I particularly enjoyed the JDM Masters vid! :thumbup:

I've loved Captain Bradford's videos - he has another great one with an in-depth review. He used to put out a video a couple times a week and then slowly started slacking off of that pace. Unfortunately something must have happened with him and there is a new host for the site. Check out the videos he has on the S2000 searching YouTube for JDM masters s2000 and here is the one I mentioned above

I don’t think there’s a high enough demand. The people that going to spend $$$$ for a high quality on a hardtop will want OEM.

I don't think I will ever buy a hardtop from unknown sources or one can prove they obtained it through legitimate channel. Too many aholes are stealing them these days.

Same. I know it's blasphemy to say, but I have never been a convertible driver and would have purchased the S2000 2-Seater Hardtop Coupe if it was available. I bought my OEM hardtop in 2015 and it stays on the car 95% of the time. Yes, once in a while I take it off because I think I am missing the convertible experience, but it's always short lived and I end up clipping back the hardtop. While I like the Mugen hardtop, I don't love it. I find the OEM hardtop has much better visibility with minimal blind spots. And I love the extra headroom of the OEM hardtop versus the soft top.

No offense to the convertible crowd at all. I realize that I am in the minority and that this car is meant to be driven topless. It's just not the experience I am looking for.

Coincidentally, I was doing some browsing this evening and ran into this link. Not sure they have available stock, but I was kind of surprised to see this listing with the appearance of being in stock.

https://www.bernardiparts.com/Produc...S2A-901ZZ.aspx

What do you think? Does Berardi actually have available inventory?

Most likely, but keep in mind, that's just the raw, unpainted aluminum shell....for 5k....if you factor in paint, seals, hardware, glass etc.....you're into some serious $$$, nevermind the other interior trim pieces like the headliner that are now discontinued. All things considered, it's probably close to if not over 10k for a "new" factory hardtop.

I'm the same way. I actually hate convertibles. I mainly got the S2k because I was a Honda head in the 90s (also had an S13), and love its' engineering, Honda build quality, FR format, handling/suspension, engine!, etc.

I was actually in the market for an 86 when they first came out (an exciting thing back then... as a cheap, good, light FR that handles good was rare, besides the Miata)... but they were still expensive used then... so I went with the S2k instead, because they were much much cheaper. Funny how it's the opposite now, lol.

The new GR86 is vastly superior to the GT86/FRS in terms of looks, and supposedly the new 2.4L boxer solved the torque issues (sans the RTV problems with the oil pickup). I was considering one for a daily, make for an interesting winter in New England though...

GR86 in dark blue with the optional bronze wheels...yes plz.

I initially missed out on the S2000 experience because I was strictly a coupe person. After experiencing the gen II BRZ and the Miata ND2, I realized the S2000 is still a better for what I prioritize.

Of course, it would be amazing if Honda built a coupe version of the S2000 back in the day.

Definitely like people are saying a challenging racket to get into. At the same price as vaikari though, if you could make a top that fit well with oem quality seals, glass and a nice better than oem interior *something to set it apart* I am sure you would have interest and buyers. The Mugen top is the best around below the oem prices and a hard name to compete with the closer in price you get to it. As others mentioned though volume is low. I know I would be interested at the right quality/price and am sure I have a few friends that would consider it.

Instead of starting from scratch, could you approach Honda to do a limited run of tops?

All these folks that are clamoring for a hardtop balk at forking over the $5000-$6000 for a used OEM hardtop, what on earth makes you think they would pay for an even more expensive version?

And, honestly, I feel like the only reason why the hardtop is in such demand is because of "collecters" and parts hoarders who want to up their cache, like lookey me I gots the rares parts...and those folks are looking for OEM. I feel confident in saying the majority of owners aren't interested in them outside of the financial speculation.

That is not to say, that there aren't some who are interested in a hardtop for whatever silly reason they concoct in their head (I kid! Kinda :p). But again, how many of those are willing to fork over real money and more importantly still, CAN fork over the money? My guess is not many are willing to do so.

On a side note, it's pretty satisfying when you meet one of these douche speculator owners who are all like, "I has the OEM hardtop" and their smug faces drop when you're not impressed cuz you tell them the only time you drive the car is when you can have the top down.