UL,

The ground effects history was meant more as a metaphor. The point is that it raised the cornering speeds so much that when they let go they let go big. You are entirely correct when you say the suspensions were compromised because of the ground effects. As you said they needed to be able to keep the car at a constant ride height and they also had to be stiff enough to deal with aero loading the ground effects caused. All this compounded the disaster when things went wrong. Perhaps a more direct example would have been comparing 50s F1 cars to 60s F1 cars prior to aerodynamics. The 50s cars with their smaller tires and cruder suspensions were more exciting to watch than the big tired cars even though they were going slower. Watch clips of Fangio to see what I mean.

UL you will agree that if you increase the mechanical grip on the S2000 that when it lets go it will be at a higher speed won't you? That was the overall point.

Benefits - Lower center of gravity and roll center, less air passing under the car (more aerodynamic), less dive under braking and less squat under acceleration. Overall increase in lateral grip. More consistant tire loading and temps.

Drawbacks - Less ground clearance, less ability to use the weight transfer when throttle steering to ballance the car and load the suspension. If you lower the ride height while maintaing full suspension travel seems to me you will be rubbing the fenders with your tires on full compression.

It is late so that is about all that comes to mind right now.

[Edited by Bieg on 06-05-2001 at 10:35 PM]

 

If you go too fast in maybe. If enter slower and you accelerate out you can steer it with the throttle without pushing (scrubbing as you say) the front. Tire pressures are very important here so your results may vary.

 

Bieg, I understand the metaphor, I just thought it really wasn't cogent to the discussion of S2K handling improvements (although that raises the question of why I spent so much time explaining that issue instead of typing the last sentence :-). Your mention of the 50's cars is interesting - all that drifting comes down to tires again.

You've got all the benefits right on the lowering, but here's a couple things to think about on the drawbacks. Is less ground clearance really a handling drawback? It sure sucks for going up driveways, but the car doesn't come close to bottoming stock over most road bumps, so an inch lower probably won't be an issue. If you go too low and maintain suspension travel, rubbing could indeed be a problem, but let's keep the change small, say 1". What I think you'll find really interesting is the weight transfer issue. Right now, if we don't have enough power to overwhelm rear tire traction, throttle application mid-corner will cause understeer because we transfer weight off the front tires. Lowering the car will reduce this effect. You might also reduce maximum drive out of the corner, but the tradeoff could be worth it since you reduce the power-on push to power-on slide transition that can be so problematic.

About the only thing you missed on drawbacks was suspension geometry. We don't know how much camber gain the S2K picks up at full compression. Even though static camber may remain unchanged, we may be further up the camber curve and pick up proportionately more camber per unit of compression. Reducing travel would mitigate this and eliminate the rubbing concerns, but introduce the problem of bump absorbtion (but then we could run softer springs because weight transfer is reduced...it goes on and on). The point was that modest changes can yield positive benefits with minimal to no compromise in at the limit behavior - if done right. That last caveat is something many of us don't have the time to deal with, so we are very cautious on the mods.

UL

 

Hell, mine doesn't. More throttle brings the back around, often more than I'd like it to, when I'm not at the cornering limit and the extra drive should be used to accelerate the car, not just steer it. You have to get the entry speed right in the S2K as it seems you can't accelerate much in corners. This doesn't do much for your margin for error on the road. In my WRX I go slow in, ballistic out, and you can hammer it from the apex. This is very safe. The only time I can get the S2K to understeer is when I go into the corner too hot.

If your car understeers under throttle you're either going a great deal faster than me or one of us has dodgy alignment settings. It's a general principle that accelerating in a corner will shift weight to the rear and unload the front tyres, reducing their grip and causing understeer. I can therefore understand your point. It's just my experience that mid corner in the S2K the power does not accelerate the car much, but instead reduces rear lateral grip and leads to throttle steering. The LSD also has a role to play here. In the extreme case (solid axle) an LSD will force the vehicle to travel in a straight line unless under power. Anyone who's driven a go-kart in the wet will know all about this.

 

naishou,

it probably is driving style more than anything. Since the S2K generally has more front grip than rear (stock tires/suspension) you need to really load up the front to maximize cornering speed. Thus, if you take this approach, applying throttle, particularly in 3rd gear or faster corners can cause some understeer. Alternatively, if you drop out of VTEC even slightly in say, a 2nd gear corner, you may not have enough drive to break loose as you begin applying throttle after the apex. Thus, you begin to push, which then transitions to oversteer as the power comes in and breaks traction.

All in all a tricky little car that is rewarding when driven right. Could be improved some, but it isn't _necessary_ for most.

UL

 

The first statement indicates the usual backpedaling.

The rest is just drivel.

Much of this is, as usual, NOT true.

Front end dive under braking, and rear end squat under acceleration is the same if spring rate and suspension travel are kept constant. There is minimal overall increase in grip due to camber changes since no suspension geometry modification was made to compensate for the additional static sag. Weight transfer is unchanged, unless you change weight distribution.

The point to going with a true short stroke suspension is not just to lower the car. Aerodynamics are a side benefit. The main reason is to gain more control over bumpsteer, sway, squat and sag tendencies. This is achieved with properly matched shocks and springs. The other main reason to even think about lowering a car is to give CV joints less angle which will minimise wear.

So let's recap.

Benefits to suspension work done properly-

1. Less stress on CV joint.
2. Better grip.
3. Better control over dynamic changes in suspension geometry (most important- snowball effect in many areas of the car, especially point #2).

Drawbacks to poorly designed suspension-

1. Overly harsh/soft ride quality (dependent on owner and situation- if he/she thinks so, then it IS so).
2. Poor bump control. Poor rebound control.
3. Poor control over suspension geometry.
4. Poor grip at either, or even both ends.

Gee- that sounds alot like the stock suspension to me.

As for the topic question- It depends. Some people find Chevy Vegas to be well mannered cars. People who like do drive at a faster rate and at higher performance levels will probably think that thread title is correct- they probably don't think a poor handling car is much fun- at least, those old school GM boats aren't. And nor was the Chevy Vega- but in 100 years that could be a collector's item and be worth $100K. Too bad a Coke will probably cost $500 then. And, being worth $100K still doesn't make it a well mannered car.

[Edited by GTRPower on 06-05-2001 at 11:07 PM]

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ultimate lurker
[B]naishou,

it probably is driving style more than anything.

 

Hi naishou-

Actually, it's easy to make this car understeer.

Stay below 2000rpm, turn through the corner, stomp on the throttle, and it'll just hang the front end out.

Is this how the S2000 was designed to be driven? Probably not. But- it sure looks like at least SOME owners are driving the car that way- probably the same ones who think stock suspension is best.

 

It is pretty much my experience also.

One thing to remember is that entering a turn you don't have 50/50 weight distribution and it is certainly not 25% on each tire. The outside front tire will have the most weight and the inside rear will have the least weight, etc... So gently rolling on the throttle with the S2000 helps restore a more neutral ballance rather than unloading the front tires as you say. By Gently modulating the throttle through a constant radius turn you can dance back and forth between oversteer and understeer just through weight transfer. The whole secret of being happy with the handling of this car is learning to use the throttle correctly in the turns. This requires a bit of a delicate touch (read smoothe) as the transition from braking to rolling on the throttle is KEY. You need to do this as fluidly as possible if any success is to be achieved. The car when driven quickly is dealing with a lot of forces so ham handed transitions will upset it greatly. Remember you generate the greatest force with your brakes, combine that with the lateral force of turning and that outside front tire has a lot to deal with. You need to help it by getting your braking done prior to turning ease off the brakes and roll on the throttle while going through the turn and try and ballance the car fore and aft.

Kieth Code (Ex Bike racer now runs California Superbike School) teaches about tire traction this way;
You have a dollars worth of traction on your tire that you can spend any way you want but only up to a dollar. If you use 75 cents on braking you only have 25 cents left for turning. If you use 75 cents on turning you have 25 cents left for acceleration and so on and so on. The whole art of driving (or riding) is maximizing that equation at any given time without overdrawing your account.

 

Like I said it requires finess and touch. Some people have it and some try to buy it.