Car and Driver - Revisited
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From: Chicago
Originally posted by Sev
That is all nice and stuff but does the added confidence, bump-steer fix, added low range torque and better curve that make the driver more confident make the car more then 5% faster????
That is all nice and stuff but does the added confidence, bump-steer fix, added low range torque and better curve that make the driver more confident make the car more then 5% faster????
some of you mod-proponents have to stop trying to make the stock car look like it has serious flaws.
it would have been like most other cars where a good 20-30% faster can easilly be achieved withg $23k of mods.
Again, forget the lap times... people buy aftermarket parts for a variety of reasons. Racers by them for only one reason. To get results. I am very results oriented when it comes to parts, and that's why I respect Mugen parts. But don't expect miracles with the car. It's got much less headroom, and therefore much less potential. You'll never catch me disputing that point.
I think this thread has run it's course... I just wanted people to be clear on my opinions. We're splitting hairs at this point, and let's face it - splitting hairs is no fun!
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Originally posted by Sev
No they don't, they probably make it about 2% faster, is 2% worth it for a racer. YES, is it worth it for most street owners NO. But everyone is free to choose what they want to do, this is why Bieg has to let up trying to convince everyone that the stock car cannot be imporved and some of you mod-proponents have to stop trying to make the stock car look like it has serious flaws which is the reason Bieg gets upset. If it really did and was MUCH MUCH harder to drive and Impossible to extract performance out of, it would have been like most other cars where a good 20-30% faster can easilly be achieved withg $23k of mods.
No they don't, they probably make it about 2% faster, is 2% worth it for a racer. YES, is it worth it for most street owners NO. But everyone is free to choose what they want to do, this is why Bieg has to let up trying to convince everyone that the stock car cannot be imporved and some of you mod-proponents have to stop trying to make the stock car look like it has serious flaws which is the reason Bieg gets upset. If it really did and was MUCH MUCH harder to drive and Impossible to extract performance out of, it would have been like most other cars where a good 20-30% faster can easilly be achieved withg $23k of mods.
For example someone bolting a big wing to the back of the car. The cost of that mod is the cost of the wing PLUS the amount the car has been devalued by it.
You are correct when I read posts by guys with vested interest saying how "horrible" the stock car is and how some mods by their associated companies can fix these problems. Anyone who owns an S2000 knows it is one of the best handling cars on the street so how "horrible" can it be. Can it be better? Sure, throw enough money at anything and you can improve it. As in anything the final 2% costs the most to extract.
What I laugh at is that someone like Alex Zanardi in a stock S2000 would eat guys like GTRPower for breakfast even with all his mods on his car. So that tells me where the real performance lies. When someone can match the times that a real race driver can do with the stock car then I figure he has a cause to start changing things. Until then he is just some clown with lots of money and not as much talent as he thinks he has buying his lap times.
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From: Chicago
Bieg
As we have seen - the $6000 investment doesn't void your warranty. I'd like to see your proof that it does since you continue to say that it does. Can you show me one person who's warranty was voided due to Mugen parts?
I can show you at least 1 person's warranty that was honored with all $6000 in Mugen parts in question (Mugen Intake, Mugen Header, Mugen Exhaust and Mugen ECU).
As we have seen - the $6000 investment doesn't void your warranty. I'd like to see your proof that it does since you continue to say that it does. Can you show me one person who's warranty was voided due to Mugen parts?
I can show you at least 1 person's warranty that was honored with all $6000 in Mugen parts in question (Mugen Intake, Mugen Header, Mugen Exhaust and Mugen ECU).
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From: Chicago
Bieg
You should stop trying to make everyone believe in your value system. $6000 may be alot to you, but not for others.
There is a value in other things besides dyno plots as Jason has said. The Mugen exhaust has a great sound to it, it also weighs 25lbs less than stock. The Mugen header is a beautiful piece and it produces torque across the powerband, the intake also creates a great sound and the ECU can actually improve your gas milage and add midrange torque. None of this translates into peak hp or torque numbers. But it is all very important to some people.
What about brake ducts and higher temp brake fluid? Are you against those? They don't add any power but you can lap a track faster with them due to reduced brake fade associated with heat.
Also, I have never heard anyone in this thread claim the S2000 is a "horrible" car. In fact, I have personally heard Nick, Jason, Greg, Scott at King, and lots of others say that it is a great car and that it's the best value for the money on the market. What these people also recognize is that there are things to do to the car that make the car better suited for their needs and perferences (not yours).
Better driving skills is the best "Mod" you can make, I think we all know that. However, as with the bumpsteer on this car, it is hard to use this car at the limit and therefore you must mod the car to be able to get to the limit safely.
The Equipment argument cuts across any sport - I am (was) a stratch golfer and I used the same irons that I was given when I was like 14 years old (original Ping Eyes) while others used all the new technology. I didn't say they should use my clubs. I played with my old clubs because I liked them. I like the new stuff too, but I was content with the old irons. Sure they hit the ball further and straighter, but did I pass judgement - nope. It is all my decision and I didn't need other people to tell me what I should use for my irons.
It's all my decision what I do to my car, not yours. So don't tell me the mods I put on my car aren't worth it. They are worth it to me and that is what counts.
You should stop trying to make everyone believe in your value system. $6000 may be alot to you, but not for others.
There is a value in other things besides dyno plots as Jason has said. The Mugen exhaust has a great sound to it, it also weighs 25lbs less than stock. The Mugen header is a beautiful piece and it produces torque across the powerband, the intake also creates a great sound and the ECU can actually improve your gas milage and add midrange torque. None of this translates into peak hp or torque numbers. But it is all very important to some people.
What about brake ducts and higher temp brake fluid? Are you against those? They don't add any power but you can lap a track faster with them due to reduced brake fade associated with heat.
Also, I have never heard anyone in this thread claim the S2000 is a "horrible" car. In fact, I have personally heard Nick, Jason, Greg, Scott at King, and lots of others say that it is a great car and that it's the best value for the money on the market. What these people also recognize is that there are things to do to the car that make the car better suited for their needs and perferences (not yours).
Better driving skills is the best "Mod" you can make, I think we all know that. However, as with the bumpsteer on this car, it is hard to use this car at the limit and therefore you must mod the car to be able to get to the limit safely.
The Equipment argument cuts across any sport - I am (was) a stratch golfer and I used the same irons that I was given when I was like 14 years old (original Ping Eyes) while others used all the new technology. I didn't say they should use my clubs. I played with my old clubs because I liked them. I like the new stuff too, but I was content with the old irons. Sure they hit the ball further and straighter, but did I pass judgement - nope. It is all my decision and I didn't need other people to tell me what I should use for my irons.
It's all my decision what I do to my car, not yours. So don't tell me the mods I put on my car aren't worth it. They are worth it to me and that is what counts.
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From: Austin
interesting analogy with golf clubs brad. my roommate plays a lot of golf, me? maybe once or twice a year if even that, but I never keep score, I just enjoy going out there and having fun.
but regarding new clubs or this brand or that brand, yes people can get picky, and as most guys will go out and spend thousands on a set of clubs, and others will only spend hundreds, the increase in distance and control has been improved only fractionaly (actually about as much as what we are comparing here with the Mugen S2k) - especially in distance.
But, what my roommate says to me, "I'll go out and buy that Ti driver, and even though it might not yield 20 more feet in distance, its all psychological."
...and hence the reason why I have an oddesey (sp?) putter for the number of times I go out to the course and play - its psychological to me, even for my casual playing.
I think the same rule can be applied here with our car. To some, it will be psychological, and others...a little more felt.
but regarding new clubs or this brand or that brand, yes people can get picky, and as most guys will go out and spend thousands on a set of clubs, and others will only spend hundreds, the increase in distance and control has been improved only fractionaly (actually about as much as what we are comparing here with the Mugen S2k) - especially in distance.
But, what my roommate says to me, "I'll go out and buy that Ti driver, and even though it might not yield 20 more feet in distance, its all psychological."
...and hence the reason why I have an oddesey (sp?) putter for the number of times I go out to the course and play - its psychological to me, even for my casual playing.
I think the same rule can be applied here with our car. To some, it will be psychological, and others...a little more felt.
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From: Chicago
Randy
Golf clubs have dramatically improved control and possibility of a "mishit" over the years. The "sweetspot" has grown thereby increasing consistancy from shot to shot.
Also, metal woods hit the ball much farther than wood woods. There are also metal woods that hit the ball farther than others.
But, to your point, there is a mental aspect as well that is very important with golf.
I used golf, but you can use any sport that has a wide range of equipment.
Golf clubs have dramatically improved control and possibility of a "mishit" over the years. The "sweetspot" has grown thereby increasing consistancy from shot to shot.
Also, metal woods hit the ball much farther than wood woods. There are also metal woods that hit the ball farther than others.
But, to your point, there is a mental aspect as well that is very important with golf.
I used golf, but you can use any sport that has a wide range of equipment.