Car and Driver - Revisited
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From: Timonium
Jesus, Beig, why do your posts have to be so deliberately inflammatory? You could ask the same quesitions a bit more diplomatically. Accusing someone of "shamelessy" promoting his products is a bit extreme.
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From: Austin
Thanks for the response Scott, I was wondering how the ECU would effect warranty claims. Not sure how easy they can tell from plugging in an ODBII connector or just by visuals. I haven't replaced mine yet and would hope that the minimal changes that the Mugen ECU provides (it does do something, not arguing that, just saying it doesn't push out 50 hp to stress the motor like some domestic chip upgrades) that Honda will not say that is voiding the warranty. Also quite nice of them to do such a courtesy fix after being in a race environment.
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From: Montreal
Although i don't completely agree with Biegs constant anti-mod campaining, i have to ask this question:
Why is Honda being so nice on a modded and raced engine when they were stupid enough to blame a modified exhaust to be the cause of a dead differential on 2 others (G1S2k, The Reverand)????? What is the point where it goes from normal usage to abuse???????
Although i don't agree with this line of reasoning, an ECU can more directly cause engine problems then an exhaust to a differential.
However, i do understand that it was the #4 cylinder problem but manufacturers aren't always super nice when a major claim is made. (to this day many have to argue and fight to get the clutch rattle or 1-2 grind fixed even though there is a TSB out for each one.)
Why is Honda being so nice on a modded and raced engine when they were stupid enough to blame a modified exhaust to be the cause of a dead differential on 2 others (G1S2k, The Reverand)????? What is the point where it goes from normal usage to abuse???????
Although i don't agree with this line of reasoning, an ECU can more directly cause engine problems then an exhaust to a differential.
However, i do understand that it was the #4 cylinder problem but manufacturers aren't always super nice when a major claim is made. (to this day many have to argue and fight to get the clutch rattle or 1-2 grind fixed even though there is a TSB out for each one.)
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From: newport beach
Funny, the three reasons I haven't gotten a supercharger yet are, in order of importance, (1) the #4 cylinder issue; (2) driveability, and (3) twisting off its mounts. The biggie is the #4 cylinder issue. I'd hate to submit a warranty claim for a new engine and have Honda say that the supercharger played a part in the failure.
I think that rather than being offended by Bieg's post, we should just acknowledge that he has a good point. If Nick has promoted the Mugen parts by glowing posts then perhaps it would have been fair for him or someone else who knew to report the engine failure. King can tell us that the mods didn't have anything to do with the failure and that Honda warrantied the engine. But I think everyone will agree that an engine failure is a material fact and at least raises the question as to whether or not the mods contributed in any way to that failure. Instead, we got a thunderous silence from those members who knew the story until it broke in the press. Talk about being the last to know.
Bieg seems to be of the opinion that we are entitled to not only the good news about modifications but the bad as well. I agree. That is not to say that I won't get a set of Mugen headers or maybe the exhaust as well, but fair is fair.
I also think it is unfair to attack Bieg personally for pointing out the inconsistency of reporting only good news about products being sold on this site and about the cars the products are attached to.
I was also a little surprised to see posts about how the Mugen ECU is only for racing use and the suggestion that it is not appropriate for on the road usage. I do not recall seeing that issue discussed by those promoting the part on this site, but then again, maybe I just missed it.
Anyway, good luck with your brand new engine, Nick.
2x6spds
I think that rather than being offended by Bieg's post, we should just acknowledge that he has a good point. If Nick has promoted the Mugen parts by glowing posts then perhaps it would have been fair for him or someone else who knew to report the engine failure. King can tell us that the mods didn't have anything to do with the failure and that Honda warrantied the engine. But I think everyone will agree that an engine failure is a material fact and at least raises the question as to whether or not the mods contributed in any way to that failure. Instead, we got a thunderous silence from those members who knew the story until it broke in the press. Talk about being the last to know.
Bieg seems to be of the opinion that we are entitled to not only the good news about modifications but the bad as well. I agree. That is not to say that I won't get a set of Mugen headers or maybe the exhaust as well, but fair is fair.
I also think it is unfair to attack Bieg personally for pointing out the inconsistency of reporting only good news about products being sold on this site and about the cars the products are attached to.
I was also a little surprised to see posts about how the Mugen ECU is only for racing use and the suggestion that it is not appropriate for on the road usage. I do not recall seeing that issue discussed by those promoting the part on this site, but then again, maybe I just missed it.
Anyway, good luck with your brand new engine, Nick.
2x6spds
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Originally posted by Sev
Although i don't completely agree with Biegs constant anti-mod campaining, i have to ask this question:
Why is Honda being so nice on a modded and raced engine when they were stupid enough to blame a modified exhaust to be the cause of a dead differential on 2 others (G1S2k, The Reverand)????? What is the point where it goes from normal usage to abuse???????
Although i don't agree with this line of reasoning, an ECU can more directly cause engine problems then an exhaust to a differential.
However, i do understand that it was the #4 cylinder problem but manufacturers aren't always super nice when a major claim is made. (to this day many have to argue and fight to get the clutch rattle or 1-2 grind fixed even though there is a TSB out for each one.)
Although i don't completely agree with Biegs constant anti-mod campaining, i have to ask this question:
Why is Honda being so nice on a modded and raced engine when they were stupid enough to blame a modified exhaust to be the cause of a dead differential on 2 others (G1S2k, The Reverand)????? What is the point where it goes from normal usage to abuse???????
Although i don't agree with this line of reasoning, an ECU can more directly cause engine problems then an exhaust to a differential.
However, i do understand that it was the #4 cylinder problem but manufacturers aren't always super nice when a major claim is made. (to this day many have to argue and fight to get the clutch rattle or 1-2 grind fixed even though there is a TSB out for each one.)
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From: Arlington
Originally posted by 2x6spds
I was also a little surprised to see posts about how the Mugen ECU is only for racing use and the suggestion that it is not appropriate for on the road usage. I do not recall seeing that issue discussed by those promoting the part on this site, but then again, maybe I just missed it.
I was also a little surprised to see posts about how the Mugen ECU is only for racing use and the suggestion that it is not appropriate for on the road usage. I do not recall seeing that issue discussed by those promoting the part on this site, but then again, maybe I just missed it.
Check this thread. You will two links to a document that contains the following text:
Since the ECU is for the exclusive use on the racing circuit, do not use it on the public road or street. It is a product exclusively designed for the unregistered cars or for the circuit racing cars of which the registration has been cancelled for the street use.
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From: Dana Point, CA
Might as well throw my hat in the ring...
I have no problem with anyone modding their car. We're all big boys and girls. You eanred the $, you spend it the way you want. I have added a few of Rick's goodies to my car, a Muz mat and am considering some "performance" goodies in the future. Just thought I should get that out first and foremost.
I also think that Bieg has a reasonable point. I am not starting a flaming war and I am not pointing fingers. However, there seems to be quite a few posts from folks promoting different products without being able to back up claims with dyno sheets, or other quantifiable means of verification. Obviously, this isn't always the case, but the cynic inside me raises its head when I see this and I become doubtful.
I don't know anyone at King. I have no relationship with King. I do know that Mugen was founded by Sochiro Honda's son. I do know that Mugen and Honda work very closely with one another on many projects. I believe Mugen to be a very reputable company. By default, I am willing to assume that this reputation can be applied to King.
Where I disagree with Bieg is in his approach. This is just my opinion, and I support Bieg being able to say whatever he wants. I think Bieg could be more effective if he focused on keeping his arguments less personal in nature. Just my 2 cents, and at the end of the day, he is his own man I would not ask him to change for my sake. I only state this because I think that while many on this board may not agree with him, he does frequently bring valid points to the board. Further, I think he is willing to "put it on the line" by stating sometimes often unpopular opinions. I may not always agree with him, but I admire his willingness to do that. I want him to keep posting, but I sincerely hope that he might take a second and listen to what Rick Hesel and I have said. The discussion can be much more fruitful, IMO, if we don't make it personal. Let's face it, I hate being PC as much as the next guy, but to a certain extent getting folks emotional does not move us forward. Too often, these threads turn into verbal mudslinging and nothing productive is accomplished.
To be fair, I don't want to single out Bieg. Others, myself included, can get caught up in the thread and border on getting confrontational at times.
Getting back on topic, I would be curious to see if American Honda has an official position on the ECU and how it does or does not affect the warranty.
Like 2x6spds, I don't remember the article saying that the part was "race only". However, if it promises to affect timing, mixutre, etc. I would be very concerned about taking the car to a dealer if it has a problem.
Nobody can argue, I think, that service levels can differ greatly depending on which Honda dealer you take the car to. I don't think its unreasonable, then to question how corporate Honda feels about this part.
Enough rambling, this took far more time and space than I originally intended.
I have no problem with anyone modding their car. We're all big boys and girls. You eanred the $, you spend it the way you want. I have added a few of Rick's goodies to my car, a Muz mat and am considering some "performance" goodies in the future. Just thought I should get that out first and foremost.
I also think that Bieg has a reasonable point. I am not starting a flaming war and I am not pointing fingers. However, there seems to be quite a few posts from folks promoting different products without being able to back up claims with dyno sheets, or other quantifiable means of verification. Obviously, this isn't always the case, but the cynic inside me raises its head when I see this and I become doubtful.
I don't know anyone at King. I have no relationship with King. I do know that Mugen was founded by Sochiro Honda's son. I do know that Mugen and Honda work very closely with one another on many projects. I believe Mugen to be a very reputable company. By default, I am willing to assume that this reputation can be applied to King.
Where I disagree with Bieg is in his approach. This is just my opinion, and I support Bieg being able to say whatever he wants. I think Bieg could be more effective if he focused on keeping his arguments less personal in nature. Just my 2 cents, and at the end of the day, he is his own man I would not ask him to change for my sake. I only state this because I think that while many on this board may not agree with him, he does frequently bring valid points to the board. Further, I think he is willing to "put it on the line" by stating sometimes often unpopular opinions. I may not always agree with him, but I admire his willingness to do that. I want him to keep posting, but I sincerely hope that he might take a second and listen to what Rick Hesel and I have said. The discussion can be much more fruitful, IMO, if we don't make it personal. Let's face it, I hate being PC as much as the next guy, but to a certain extent getting folks emotional does not move us forward. Too often, these threads turn into verbal mudslinging and nothing productive is accomplished.
To be fair, I don't want to single out Bieg. Others, myself included, can get caught up in the thread and border on getting confrontational at times.
Getting back on topic, I would be curious to see if American Honda has an official position on the ECU and how it does or does not affect the warranty.
Like 2x6spds, I don't remember the article saying that the part was "race only". However, if it promises to affect timing, mixutre, etc. I would be very concerned about taking the car to a dealer if it has a problem.
Nobody can argue, I think, that service levels can differ greatly depending on which Honda dealer you take the car to. I don't think its unreasonable, then to question how corporate Honda feels about this part.
Enough rambling, this took far more time and space than I originally intended.
