Dragonx

I enjoyed the discussion of H/T but have a trail braking question.
I recently read an article on technique which encouraged trail braking past the apex of the corner to keep the weight shifted to the front tires until they were straight. I had never considered that before. Is this another use of H/T or are you going to move the left foot off the clutch and to the brake?
I only remember one instructor discussing precisely when to accelerate out of a corner and that was at the apex. Of course the corner was Turn One at Road Atlanta and it is up hill and high camber.

What are you high track mileage guys doing?

Tex_S2K

Classic is to do all your braking in a straight line before the turn. Not an expert, but I don't trail brake. You can get into big trouble sometimes.

Dragonx

Tex,
That is what I cut my teeth on but this guy said, and it makes sense, that you don't want to shift the weight of the car off the fronts until they are finished turning the car. Could it be that you could have an earlier turn in, carrying more speed if you kept the front heavy all the way to track out? Or is that negated by being in the throttle sooner?

I'm going to see if I can find that article

Tex_S2K

I think you would be talking a very small speed increase, potentially. You know the saying; "slow in/fast out". While I can understand the concept of keeping the front end loaded while the wheels are turned, I think the effect would be negligable compared to the standard method. I also think that the potential to screw up is increased, since this requires much more "feel" for the traction limits than most of us have. On the other topic, Schatten explains it very well. essentially, you can trail brake, but the amount of braking is decreased from straight line braking proportional to the speed, wheel turn in, etc. I'll stick to the old way!

Jason Saini

DragonX, I see your point but what you must remember is how balanced our car is and how 'interwoven' of a concept cornering is. The quote about not wanting to shift weight off the fronts is true to a point... but you must be careful not to lose the back because there isn't enough load on the rears.

I guess my point is this - you always want to either be turning the wheel while braking (trail braking) or while having just finished braking and while picking up an even throttle. An even throttle just maintains speed - so you aren't unloading the fronts too much. You get into trouble if you try to accelerate before turning the wheel, thereby unloading the fronts.

Look at it like this:
1.Braking & Turning in at the same time = Fronts heavily loaded and rears light.
2.Turning while coasting or at even throttle = Load distributed evenly.
3.Turning and accelerating at the same time = Fronts light and rears heavily loaded.

You want to be somewhere between 1 & 2... remember that racing is managing weight transfer dynamically to optimize cornering. If a corner is off camber, trail braking might throw the tail out quickly, and if a turn is banked you might need to trail brake to get good rotation.

These are the skills that make great racing drivers - being able to optimize the car always, and manage the weight transfer. Because remember there isn't just 1, 2 & 3 from above, there is an infinite number of combinations in-between. I hope this helped!

vmb

If anyone is ever faced with the chance to autoX in the wet, take it. I found that the balance/handling of the S2K is exaggerated, such that it was a very good "learning experience" for me last year. Trail braking made me spin out in the wet (on the SO2's). This seems to go along with it's reputation for oversteer. My first 3 laps I drove like it was dry and went off course each time. Then I stopped trail braking and won the class. I imagine that in the dry a little trail braking would be more tolerated.

It all boils down to what Jason said above, though.

And at the risk of being laughed at, I will admit that I learned the basic (very basic) principles of racing dynamics from the first version of Indycar Racing! Then I read Alain Prost's Competition Driving. One of these days I'll find the time for a class........

Schatten

vmb - I agree - experience in wet autox's are great. I remember running in one years ago - first two runs were try, the second two were pouring down rain. needless to say, I had better runs wet because I was concentrating on the smoothness of the car. then again, it was a mustang, and it was a point and go type of handling.

and yes, I remember the first version of indycar! you'd go around and around in indianapolis and then the indy car racing, three disk version came out - great stuff! that's how I still know laguna seca and long beach so well. <grins>

Allan Haggai

Jason...that was beautiful! Hard to add anything to that!
(I'll try anyway!)

DragonX, heavy trail braking is a technique that is best used to make an understeering pig turn. The S2k is so well balanced that it needs very little trail brake for a fast entry. Provided you have set the corner up properly, you can pick up the throttle sooner, your exit speed will be better and you'll get down the next strait quicker.

Many of the surprise spins that I've read about on our forum seem to have been caused by too much trail braking or trailing throttle.

Dragonx

Thanks Guys, This has been a help.

When I get to the point where I have to find that last half second per lap, I'll revisit this issue.

By the way Allan, how many understeering pigs do you know?

Mikey

I've tried trail braking from 100mph into a tightening radius corner, (Summit Point, Jefferson Circuit, counter-clockwise, final corner) but I didn't like the effect. The rear end lightened too much for my liking.

I'm still not sure which way was faster through that corner. But trail braking was certainly more on the edge of the envelope and seemed a lot more likely to spin the car.

A spin at 100mph into a corner with very little runoff would be no fun at all.

Maybe some suspension upgrades would keep the rear end planted a bit better.