Things to think about Spoon and Brembo kits , we will go over differences in products .

Spoon:
1 When I looked at picture I thought it was billet, I was surprised when it was posted that it was cast . Cast calipers have a lot of flex, requires more fluid to work .
2 Piston sizes were not posted so I can't tell if it has more piston area . If it had four 1

 

Hey, so when is your brake kit going to come out?

 

but isn't there another benifit to multiple piston calipers in that they distribute the pressure more evenly on the pad, thus causing more even contact between pad and rotor? Yes it's the same over all area, but the pressure being applied is spread out more.... no?

-Shing

 

Cast calipers cost more to manufacture. Billet products only require a machine shop contractor. Cast products, in general, show a higher level of investment into the product design and manufacturing than a machined product.

For example, a cast caliper is still machined to tighter tolerances than what is commercially feasible with just casting technology. However, mass producing calipers via casting is the only way to ensure quality. There are vastly more manufacturing variances in machine work.

Both have nothing to do with flex- that is purely a design issue.

Why would the Spoon caliper necessarily be from the Nissan 300ZX? I don't see the correlation. Please elaborate. FYI- the Nissan 300ZX 4 piston caliper brake system w/OEM rotors are the brake setup of choice for the 240SX World Challenge team. It's definitely raceable even for a street system. If Spoon is indeed using this caliper as their branded caliper, then I have no problems recommending it as an upgrade for those who don't have enough caliper (whomever that may be- definitely not me).

Please elaborate on your statements on the Brembo system. Many brake systems use different sized pistons- whether they are cast or billet, aftermarket street or race kits. It's the given practice to minimise tapering- which is a function of hotspots on the pad in relation to rotation.

Buying wheels with the proper offset for the given braking system/suspension knuckle will eliminate any spacer problem. The fact is, if you are adding pistons to the outboard sides of the car, you will need more wheel/spoke clearance.

As for making rotors bigger- that is the standard practice for racing systems. More mass=more potential energy storage. There is no free ride.

What you have completely neglected to mention is the fact that race calipers require far more maintenance than any street derived system.

Besides, if the Brembo systems were so poor- why would so many high end manufacturers like Lotus and Ferrari use them? The last time I checked, Ferrari uses a cast caliper on the F50...

 

Nick, I have heard that Big Red's flex a certain amount under hard use. I don't have any experience with them so can't be certain. However, it should be noted that Porsche went with a cast monoblock caliper on all the 9x6 series cars to eliminate the flexure that occurs on a regular cast caliper from (I presume) the movement of the bolts as both caliper halves grip and shift.

However, I'd like to see some real data showing how much these so-called street calipers flex when compared to a race caliper.

Also, your comment about machining vs. casting is pretty vague. CNC machining has incredible repeatability so I'm not convinced of your argument that a cast part has better tolerances than a machined part.

Still, the Brake Man setup that dwb1 is developing seems to me to be an unproven system. Brembo is tried and true, so is Nissin, so is AP. I need more information before I can make any sort of conclusion of the Brake Man setup.

 

S2kRob-

I did not imply that casting technology is as precise as machine milling (my example of tighter tolerance control in the first post says as much). I did imply that to cast to the tolerance levels of milling would be prohibitively expensive.

Casting a part is cost effective in high volume manufacturing. CNC milling is not cost effective in high volume manufacturing. If a manufacturer is serious about supplying a large number of kits, casting is the way to go. Another problem with milling billet is poor grain structure integrity. That is actually the biggest problem.

Monoblock caliper castings are proof that design is more important. Although there have been things said about two piece calipers being more flex prone, there hasn't been enough proof to stop companies like Brembo/AP- the main suppliers to most of the motorsports industry, from producing them for the market. Once again, design is more important than the fact it's a two piece caliper- there are many tricks that are used to get around "problems" in both cast or milled parts.

My thinking is- if they think it's good enough for $250K+ cars, it's good enough for me if I require bigger calipers- which is why I use the Brembo F40 system on my other car.

Bottom line- it's not as simple as saying "machined items are better than cast items." It's just not true.

This is not meant as any "slight" against the Brakeman setup. People should make informed decisions based on the facts- there's lots of factual information out there...

 

The flames from this post might burn down Chicago or London .

I was not trying to imply any thing . Casting of aluminum is a cost savings process , that is why the wheels on our cars are cast not forged . The model S-2000 on my TV is cast not billet , you don't need the strength and you could not afford one. Aluminum billet material is available in very strong alloys . Because the machining does not heat the part to the point where the material changes, the part remains strong. You have a lot more costs in a billet mono-bloc design than an inexpensive cast part . To build any cast caliper you pour aluminum in mold let cool , take out of mold, machine piston holes , drill mounting holes , drill and tap threaded holes ,and paint or plate your done .
To completely rebuild racing caliper $15.00 each , not very expensive.
I did not say that Spoon calipers were off the Nissan 300Z . I said that it was designed probability like the caliper on the 300Z .The caliper that Nissin makes .

A four piston caliper does distribute force somewhat more evenly . The real advantage is the amount of movement that pistons or piston has to travel . If you have a single piston system both sides have to move away from rotor . Because of the point that movement occurs is far from rotor any misalignment or FLEX requires pads to get pushed father away . On four piston setup pads only push back on pistons on each side .The caliper, if very stiff ,will remain in place and pad will only move back slightly .

Because of computerized machinery more and more parts are made from strong alloy aluminum . This does not reduce cost it makes strong parts affordable.

Think about the new aluminum brace for our cars if that were cast, it would not be very strong .
We talk about all these street cars using this and that caliper . Why don't you think race cars use the same street calipers . All they would have to do is remove dust seals so they would not melt or add friction to the system. Most parts that are sold to be used on cars are made to a price point , how much can I get for this part and what do I need this part to do . As long as your part fits both items you will sell parts that does not mean that better parts are available .
I really don't care what people do or don't do I just feel that information never hurt any one . The more information some one has gives them the power to make intelligent decisions.

Just to add some more fuel to the fire, if you want stronger part than billet have it FORGED.


brad
6410

ps
"burn baby burn disco explosion "

 

i want to get new brakes.

 

I don't see any flames here- except maybe your second post here.

[B][QUOTE]I was not trying to imply any thing . Casting of aluminum

 

dwb1,

You mentioned that your brake kit will fit the stock wheels. Can you estimate the minimum offset required? I am looking at the Regamaster/Spoon wheels and want to be sure that they will work with your brake kit.

Tanq