I thought all this talk of finger-pointing and lawsuits was just the typical good humor one enjoys after being humbled by a wonderful motor car that doesn't appreciate crappy driving techniques....

Anyhoo, I can sympathize, Mr. Tip, because I too, have had my rear come loose in the wet. To wit,



...NO, that's not toe-out you see.

My mistake was making an evasive manuever to avoid an old lady who pulled out in front of me.. but that's really immaterial. I made a mistake under duress and over-drove the car on a wet surface. I was punished. I have learned my lesson.

I sincerely hope all StooK owners, regardless of ability level, either perceived or actual, will take these stories to heart. Take your time learning how to go fast... or how to drive in the rain.. or how to "hear" what your car is telling you. Be smooth!!!! Be safe!!!

Peace, and safe driving.

 

Ah, that's the new JDM four wheel steering option...

[grey]--------------------------o0o---------------------------[/grey]

[grey]2000 S2000 - 1998 VFR800 - 2000 Atos[/grey]

 

Good thread, lots of good info for anyone who has not been to a driving school, or hasn't been to one in several years.

Taylor, you are spot on. Qtip holds a majority of the responsibility for his accident, he just has to learn to accept that he is responsible for his actions.
Wouldn't it be way cool if Honda included a one or two day driving school as standard? I'd be willing to see the price go up $500 - $1000 per vehicle to keep more of our beautiful cars on the road and looking pretty.

Keep it slow in the rain, go take a performance driving school course, enjoy a longer vehicle life.
sousleau

 

You can rail about lawyers and frivolous lawsuits and needless warnings and increased insurance premiums, but the issue is: does the seller of this automobile have a reasonable right to assume that an ordinarily reasonable new buyer of this automobile has this knowledge when the risk of ignorance to that buyer is death?

There is agreement that the S2K is qualitatively different from other roadsters. Significantly more than any other production roadster, it does not compromise on performance. One aspect of that performance are the tires. The information that I contend is critical in this case is that under wet conditions the car is transformed from being signficantly more controllable than the average car to being significantly less controllable. The contrast in the degree of control between dry and wet conditions is astonishing. The reason is understood by all participants on this board. The car is equipped with a dry road tire. It does not compromise. Naturally it underperforms an all-weather tire.

That is the information in dispute. The overwhelming consensus is that new owners of the S2K should know the properties of performance and non-performance tires in wet and dry conditions and be aware that the S2K stock tire is a performance tire. If they don't, they could get killed. The overwhelming consensus on this board is wrong. There is no reason to expect the ordinary new buyer of this car to have this information, and more signficiantly, there is absolutely no reason not to expect the seller of the car to provide this information, given the risk of death, even though the great majority of new owners may already have the information.

The warnings given in the manual are no more relevant to the real issue than any warning to drive safely in the rain.
The information which is missing is precisely the information which the consensus believes is already known. Everyone knows to drive safely in the rain. That is the no-brainer which the consensus takes so much joy in mocking. What is not said is that this car is not stocked for the rain, and that wonderful feeling of control that you are used to is diminished not because it is raining (which is the case with any car) but because the car is stocked to outperform the average car on dry roads and by the nature of that bias will underperform the average car on wet roads. THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE T-WORD.

Now, why is the T word missing? Why is there no mention of the tires in the manual. Why doesnt it state forthrightly what everyone here been saying and everyone here has said that I should have known, that Honda has not compromised by putting on an all-weather tire and that as a consequence, there is a particular danger under wet conditions, particular because you are used to a certain level of control and that level is reduced by a factor greater than the usual reduction in control in the change from dry to wet conditions. What is that missing? And why is everyone so upset at the suggestion that it is missing? It is indisputably important information. It is indisputable that many many new buyers may not know it. It is indisputable that the absence of that information can kill you.

So, I ask again, why is the information missing? Is it because Honda assumes you know it? that it is too incidental to mention? No, it is missing precisely because Honda is afraid that it will constitute an admission of responsibility. They think by saying it, they may face some exposure in an accident. This is the same reason that the tobacco companies failed to warn about the effects of smoking (when the ordinary smoker may not have known about them). Yet of course a warning is the best defense. More importantly, it MAY ACTUALLY WORK WHEN IT CONTAINS UNKNOWN INFORMATION. That is, not drively safely in the rain, but you have a dry road tire. It's not made for the rain. Ifyou drive it in the rain, drive in high gear, don't brake or downshift in wet areas or when gaining speed because increased torque tends to make the rear wheels try to outrun the front ones.

I'd love to learn how to drive from you guys, and I respect what you know about cars. But I wouldn't want you making social policy. You guys are just too proud to put yourselves in the position of an ignorant owner. I didn't known the car came with performance tires, and if I knew the words, I didn't know what that meant. Gee, what a dummy. Well, he'll find out soon enough. What this car does not need is a history of accidents like the one I had. The solution is education. I'm doing my part. Honda is not doing its part and the general attitude on this board is not doing its part either. The BOARD however is certainly doing its part, because it is here, entertaining this lively discussion.

Qtip

 

Happy motoring for those of us that like to drive, and happy Legal Wrangling for those that prefer to dig into the excruciating minutia of "disclosure".



j/k all you legal eagles!

 

Our stook is doing very well in the rain, snow and even the blizzard we had.
The trick is to drive like you are driving in the rain....but if your part of country doesn't rain often, I guess you don't get to practice.
The most important of all, get snow tires with wet traction and put 50 lbs of books in the trunk
Anyway, we just took the books out 2 weeks ago.
Next week, we will probably take the blizzaks out and put the S02s back on.

 

Someone mentioned it above but it is worth emphasizing the added difficulty of the LSD in the wet. It gains us forward drive in situations that an open diff would just spin but it also induces turning thrust under slick conditions. I do not know if 5th gear has enough torque at 70 MPH to cause the drift, but it might.

My SO2's have all of 1300 miles on them and that was the biggest wet-driving issue I detected in a recent wet Auto-X. I would not be surprised if the wet grip goes off by 6K miles.

Qtip, I'm glad you weren't hurt.

 

Qtip
Some of what you say has a point, it's a valid concern. However the ease at which you shift blame is the issue at hand (in my eyes anyhow).

I will not deny that the automobile and car sales industries get away with murder. I will also not deny that it would be nice if the government(s) did something about that problem. However.. I'm going to tell you what the solution to these problems is... you've heard it before...

PERFORMANCE DRIVING SCHOOL

You are likely to learn more about your car in 2 days at a performance driving school than you will ever learn about it during the length you own it.

Your comments about Tobacco are hilarious. There are 2 pathetic things about the tobacco thing. 1) That tobacco companies are allowed to peddle progressive death and disease at $5 a pack (Canada). 2) That tobacco smokers are allowed to sue them for peddling death. That the governments are allowed to tax you more on peddled death. The US legal system is a $#%$ing joke. Tobacco makes you sick, Hot Coffee can burn you. I'm waiting for alcoholics to start suing the breweries. What a sweet spectacle that'll make.

Survival of the fittest. Due-dilliegence. Honda would be insane to put all season tires on the car. It's a roadster, it's a performance car. You are more than likely to get into trouble with all seasons on, than with the stock wheels becuase you'll find not only are you capable of slipping around in the rain, you'll be slipping around when it's bone dry too. Go to tirerack.com they have lots of information and literature about tires, you might learn something.

I would be pissed if the car came with all seasons, because now I'd have to buy another set of tires to get what I paid for.

For starters.. it's raining. DRIVE SLOWER. A LOT SLOWER.

Here are the basic dynamics of driving an automobile. You push the gas, weight is transferred to the rear of the car. You hit the brakes, weight is transferred to the front of the car. If you turn right, weight is transferred to the left of the car... if the turn is left, the weight moves to the right. If you up or downshift you are upsetting the balance of the car. The tires contact patch changes as weight distribution changes. If the car isn't balanced you are making some of the wheels do more work than others. If you are going down a hill, in the rain, at 70 and there is a slight turn lets say to the left, with the car properly balanced you are placing a lot of weight and work on the front right hand tire. It will have the majority of weight on it. 1 tire. Not 2, not 3, not 4. 1 tire. If you broke at all, you've put even MORE weight on that tire. If that tire breaks adhesion (which is VERY easy in the rain with all sorts of tires), you will be in trouble and are likely to do things like hit the brakes and twist the wheel and all sorts of crap that just makes it worse. You may not think it, but you might have been better off speeding up going down that hill (not alot, just a little, foot on the throttle moving some of that weight to the rear...)

Still the fact remains that you were driving way too fast for the environmental conditions.

You know.. almost everything I buy, I try to learn as much as possible about it. After all, I spent MY money on it. I worked for a significant period of time so I could afford the item. I can not rely on someone else to spell it all out for me. Advertising is a joke. You should feel ashamed if you are duped by it. The government should feel ashamed for allowing blatent disinformation to be distributed to the masses. But it's your duty to get a clue and just hope the government gets one someday.

There are two types of people in this.. consumers and enthusiasts. Who wants to be a consumer? Not I.

 

The logic that the S2k's excellent DRY weather performance does not translate to WET conditions and that Honda is at fault for not warning us, is ridiculous. Most cars out there are full of compromises. When was the last time you saw a race with a spare tire, other than off-road racing?

I'm glad that you shared this with us, and if you read the posts, most of us are more concerned that you are safe and sound rather than displaying our own hubris.

Good luck with your claim.

Cheers,

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by qtip
[B]A search on "rain" brought no results.