ls1rx7

Hey All,

I'm new to the forum, because I'm researching the S2000 as one of the 2 cars I've narrowed my choices to. I drove a Mazdaspeed Miata with some light engine work as well as coilovers/sway bars.
And I alo just drove an AP2 with ohlins on it.
I'm going to post the same thread on Miata.net to get both sides of the table's view on things.

The overall goal for the vehicle is to replace my LS1/Rx7. So both cars would get significant power increases, I'm looking at both of them because they're the lightest, best handling, convertibles on the market in this price segment. The next great handling convertible is the Lotus Elise which is shockingly pricey. I even drove a viper to compare and didn't honestly like it. So the feeling of a small car that changes directions well is key to this.
Before this I was planning on building an Ls1 swapped Lotus 7 clone. So I wanted something I could drive on the weekends. Drive to the track, get FTD and/or beat full prepped race cars and drive it home. But having no roof whatsoever is just not possible in New England, where there's always a chance for rain.
So I had to upgrade myself to full size cars. Although it would be a lot more difficult, I'd still like to get as close as possible to what I was looking to achieve with the kit car I was going to build.

Here's my plan for the s2000 if I go that route.
Full suspension / Turbo or Supercharger and use it as a weekend/track toy,

The miata I would K24 swap it and Rotrex the K24.
Same thing full coilovers sway bars etc.

Impressions / Pros / Cons of Each Car So Far:

Miata:
Pros - Nimble, playful, light, higher potential fully modded. I got in this car and drove it like a hooligan sliding all over the place even though I wasn't going much faster than traffic.With grippy tires and a good suspension setup this car might have a higher potential limit than the S2000 when completely built, and it would be slower though up until that point, but it would feel more playful while doing it. I would say price as well, but after the k24 mounting kit, these cars are within 3-5k of each other.
Cons - Cheap feeling, and kinda scary chassis flex (And I drove a Mazdaspeed which are the heavier/nicer ones) Not so much in terms of creaks and rattles, but the rear view mirror shook to the point of not being able to see what was behind me over bumps, and the feeling of the windshield flexing side to side over rough pavement AKA: cowl shake, was actually concerning. What happens when I put 500whp in the car? This car needs a cage. Also the miata is the quintessential hairdresser car. I could care less what people think of me but the world around us doesn't understand the miata, and some car guys even crap on it.

S2000:
Pros - More grip from the beginning, stable. Quality feel (My wife made the comment that the s2000 felt like a mix of the Miata, and the porsche 997 Cabriolet we test drove, shes a keeper =). The image/ outward appearance of the car. On the test drive I got thumbs up from a Porsche GT3 driver, that would NEVER happen in a Miata.
Cons - Stable, boring by comparison to the miata. It didn't goad me into playing with it. Slightly more expensive. Didn't have that small car feel.


So that's about it. Both stock cars I see as pretty blank canvases. Each would be highly modified. It's mostly the essence of both cars at this point, their feel and their potential that I'm weighing things on now.
Trying to figure out which would have higher limits while still being somewhat streetable. And I'm thinking I should drive an AP1 S2000 as I know they're more playful. As much so as a miata? I doubt it but maybe it's some sort of middle ground

Any input would be greatly appreciated, I've been struggling to figure out my next car for the last 18 months.
-Josh

MrFunk

I get thumbs up all the time driving the S2k...
The choice is yours... both will meet your needs. With that said I'll say the S2k is a higher quality and better engineered machine vs the Miata. It's also considered more "rare"...
That being said - a vehicle purchase is an emotional decision - go with your heart - enjoy whichever one you decide on.

Car Analogy

The S you drove has aftermarket suspension, with springs that are more forward (understeer) biased than even a stock ap2. Its faster around a track, but not as fun or playful on the street.

Driving a stock suspension S, especially an ap1, would definitely be more playful.

Of course, with your suspension upgrade you are already planning, you could pick any springs you wanted, for whatever balance of playful vs track fast.

ls1rx7

I'm not sure if you know the actual car I drove, but yes it is a track setup. I guess the guy has won his class at nationals in the car with the Ohlins shocks and 800lb springs up front. Not sure what was out back.
He also wasn't running a rear sway bar which seems to give more grip at the back. at least with RX7s and other RWD cars I've driven

Car Analogy

I was thinking of the off the shelf springs that Ohlins come with. They are front biased. But even when people go up in spring with the Ohlins, they typically do so equally at both ends, so fwd bias remains.

Certainly with the rear bar removed its even more front biased. More than I was thinking when I made my previous post.

So yes, the cars are in fact notoriously rear biased stock (or 'daringly neutral' as one auto journalist review stated). So much more playful than the setup you drove.

lookstoomuch

I've owned / tracked a mazdaspeed miata, supercharged '99 miata (M45 w/Xida), and now own an '06 S2000, here's my take. First if you're doing a motor swap I'd take the MSM off the list...personally. You'll pay a premium for a lousy tune and turbo setup. You're dead on with the pro's cons of the two platforms though over all. I got out of the miata because it was too small (I'm 6'2") and felt like i was strapped to the motor driving to/from track events at 4200 RPM and given the flex/cheap feel of the miata I could not imagine driving one with 300+ horsepower while the s2000 I see it as plenty feasible. Don't get me wrong I'm not trashing the platform it does have the fun, quick twitch, short wheelbase thing going for it and obviously can be plenty fast.

A con I've seen on the S2000 platform is stuff can be a bit more expensive (hardtops, engines, etc..) as it is the more rare care so while there's an aftermarket, no vendor as strong as Flyin Miata and used parts aren't as plentiful either.

If more power is what you want, I guess between the two I couldn't see spending a bunch of money swapping a new motor into a miata, tuning, etc.. why not start with the more powerful of the two to begin with and go from there?

DefSport

The S2000 has much more track performance out of the box and mod for mod. My stock AP1 with modest coilovers on it can dice it up with pretty quick Miatas at the track that have much stickier tires and way more track focused mods than me. My car is also really tail happy (Tein Flex Z coils, otherwise stock included staggered 16s), so I would not call it boring at even lower speeds as it gets right up in your face with how neutral the cornering is and makes you DRIVE it at all times. The Miata is playful, the S2000 is more a "drive me hard" type of experience. Its more frantic, and pushes you to drive faster. The Miata just wants you to play around with it, but doesn't really reward that 9-10/10ths driving in the same way when they're close to stock.

A Miata will definitely need a non-Miata engine to make the kind of HP you're talking about. BPs start to really get unreliable for track usage above ~275-300 rwhp from what I've read, as the head doesn't flow well, and they're pushed pretty hard to do that.

Whereas an S2000 with a low stress turbo setup could belt out 400 rwhp, and the drivetrain should mostly take it as long as you're not launching it (but as with anything, you could toast stuff at double the stock power level). There's something to be said for not having to mod EVERYTHING on the car, as that takes forever to finish and enjoy it. You can also fit way more tire under an S2000, which makes a big difference when you're putting a lot of power through the tires.


Miatas are fun track cars, but performance monsters they are not, even with lots of mods typically. So I'd really lean towards the S2000.

Kirk180

Both are higly capable, fun track cars. My only recommendation is to follow your initial thought of driving an AP1 before making a choice. I drove both S2k's, and for my track car, I opted to buy an AP1. But that's just me. Not trying to start an AP1 vs AP2 war here. Just drive them all, look into all the specs, and make the choice that best fits you. Good luck.

DanielB

Just spent last weekend at the track with a friend who has a Mazdaspeed with the Flying Miata little enchilada kit (stock turbo with extra boost and fuel to keep up; est 200 HP at wheels) along with upgraded brakes and coilovers (don't recall which ones). He was also running BFG R1 slicks. I am in a MY00 stock except for extra camber in front and upgraded track pads on R-S4 tires. On a course that laps in the 2 minute range, he's about 1.5 seconds faster and I think we have similar levels of skill. I do think I was working harder than he was; when I followed him, he was more stable in corners than I was. But when I swap to Ohlins I expect to close that gap and reduce the drama.

There's another Miata (NB) around here with LS3 swap. His car is nicely sorted and he's blazingly fast on track. But he's constantly chasing cooling issues. In fact, every Miata I know that is boosted has cooling issues. I'm in Colorado and the thin air makes it worse, but the concensus among the Miata crowd here is that this problem is probably more or less unsolvable unless you're willing to cut up the front. Something to keep in mind if you want to keep the body looking more or less stock.

My point is that you have to do a lot to a Miata to get it the level of a mostly stock S2000. After that, of course, either can be made wicked fast depending on how far you want to mod.

Car Analogy

Here is an outside the box idea, or really more of a different version of the original kitcar box. What about an FFR 818. Mid rear engined kit car. Available in Coupe with real rollup windows, or spyder with roadside assembled cloth top (and you can switch back and forth, the coupe roof can be built as a hardtop.)

Subaru powered. Turbo or NA. Mild to wild. Its 1800 lbs! Can also use Ford ecoboost 4 power. Some have done other motors, and even a few all electric.

No, its not awd. They use the engine and front trans, delete the rear driveshaft, and move the whole symmetrical assembly to the rear. The previously front overhanging motor becomes a mid rear motor, and the trans output to the front axles becomes the rear axles output. Clever. It uses a combination of Subie control arms and fabricated arms.

Available in street version or track. Street can still obviously be double duty and tracked. Very stout and flex free frame.

You build it yourself. Built price would probably be close to what you'd have in either moded S or Miata, and would blow them all off the track. Exotic looking and somewhat unique.