Its all about developing skills, not the car

 

look, you REALLY dislike the term "snap oversteer". That's fine.

And yes, obviously everything that happens with the car, including oversteer, is induced by the driver, because if it was not induced by the driver, the car would just sit still and not go anywhere and obviously not oversteer at all. It would be parked.

the AP1 s2000 is more SENSITIVE to conditions, be it road, bumps, input, throttle, brake, steering, than most average RWD cars.

how about that. it's more sensitive. some people like to use the term "snap oversteer" to describe this sensitivity WITHOUT placing blame on who caused it, but rather describing the sensitive nature of the AP1.

the miata is VERY predictable when it oversteers, and very controllable after the fact. the AP1 s2000 in comparison, is not.

 

Well...I did acknowledge that the car reacts faster and that it is more sensitive to inputs than others. Every car acts uniquely. Otherwise, there would be no reason to give them different names.

I'm saying that before going and driving like a maniac, one should learn the car's uniqueness. I have never had unpredictable or "snap" oversteer. My problem is that people are wild eyed and act like the car bit them "out of nowhere".

I made the point that the car gives plenty of warning before letting go. People just don't know what the car is saying...but insist on doing crazy things. The car's tolerance to peoples' BS driving ability is the fact that when it finally lets go...its going pretty effing fast.

If it was that "unpredictable", how did one get going that fast before you lost control?

 

When I started racing it was in the Improved Production sports car category, in a Morgan +4. There was a bunch of us, young blokes racing Triumphs, MGs, Healeys & other such production sports. The limitations on modifications meant the cars had a fairly low level of performance, & we could all drive them fairly close to their limit. There was a similar category for touring cars/sedans.

Then some of us got more serious, & moved into open competition in sports cars or open wheelers. It was really interesting to see the difference in ability displayed as the machinery got quicker. Some who had been competitive in the lower categories were very much slower in formula racing cars, where I moved to. Some of my friends who were fully competitive with me in our Morgans & MGs were now up to 6 or even 8 seconds slower than me in a Formula Junior open wheeler. [small 1100cc light open wheelers].

Later some who had done OK in the small low powered open wheelers could not manage the more powerful F2s, & none of them ever become competitive in F1s. They could not handle the higher limit of the quicker cars. Some who looked very good in sports cars or sedans just could not handle the much higher limit of F1s & F2s.

This is echoed with our S2000s. Many who can handle lower limit sports cars, or touring cars find themselves a bit short on skill when they try the higher limit of the S2000. Many others just need some time to catch up with the new limits.

I don't feel it is "snap" oversteer, I was expecting the tail to go quickly, but I was surprised at haw quickly it "snapped" back when I applied correction, the first time the tail went wandering. It is fairly obvious in retrospect I applied similar opposite lock to what I had been using in my old Triumph TR7 & 8, which was way to much for the direct steering in the S.

With my different cars requiring different inputs, it took a while for it to become automatic to respond differently in each, but I now don't have to think about it. I agree some track time is great if possible, as I find it is about 60 to 70 MPH where the S is most likely to bite a ham fisted or inexperienced driver.

 

When you say "opposite lock" are you referring to the same thing that I think of as counter steering?

Do you mean that the counter steer necessary to control the S2k when the rear end lets go is more subtle than you would apply in a TR7 all other factors being equal?

 

BTW - I could have done without that analogy to ambiguous assaults. Just saying.

 

Yes rpg51, sorry for any confusion. In Oz we use the European terminology, so talk & think in terms of opposite lock, under steer & oversteer, where you use counter steer, push & lose. Our common language is not all that common sometimes.

And I was referring to the slower steering in the Triumphs. It takes at least 50% more turn of the steering wheel to achieve the same degree of turn on the road wheels than the S2000. It is also more gentle. With narrower & smaller diameter wheels it has considerably less contact patch, & starts to lose grip more easily, so is less sudden as it does.

However all this means it takes much more correction to actually stop a developing slide. The less well developed suspension also contributes to earlier loss of grip, & an easier tail to control. You can get away with things in the Triumph that would have the S biting you very hard, all at a lower speed of course.

The S being much more sensitive is more responsive to our input, in both the good & bad ways. I rarely ever need opposite lock/counter steer with the S. Just taking off some of the pro turn lock will usually stop a slide, if done soon enough.

 

Fascinating. I had no clue about the characteristics of this S when I bought it. I was basically taken in by the price, the reliability and the looks of the thing. For some reason the body reminds me of the old AH 3000 which I always loved to look it, if not to drive. I think its the long sloping hood. Frankly I preferred the Sprite to drive.

I just fell into this S and I now know I really lucked out. This is a great car. I enjoy the challenge of learning to drive it well. Great fun. I do think of it as a bit of a handful and I get nervous letting family members drive it. I just make sure they keep the speed down and drive only in good weather.

 

I think that a fair thing to say as a "heads up" to new owners is that the car behaves like a RWD car. But its limits are high and its reflexes are fast. It takes your inputs more literally than other cars. And the line between "go faster" and "too fast" is sharper than some other cars.

I bought mine BECAUSE there was a track day at Road America that I wanted to attend, specifically, with a S2000. So I tracked mine 8 days after buying it. Was RA a good place to "learn"? No. It was a dumb move. But even so...I felt that the car was very stable and predictable.

Mine is a MY00 with both stock swaybars intact.

I didn't hear about how S2000's were supposed to be "unpredictable" until a while after owning mine. The first time I heard someone describe their "sudden" oversteer experience...it was apparent that they were making pretty classic mistakes.

 

I am not ever going to claim to be a driving superhero. And I am not posting this to promote how "amazing" I am.

But take a look at the video. Admittedly, all this was done on purpose. Just look at how difficult it is to make the car oversteer. In the last clip, I am replicating classic "snap oversteer" situation. Reducing radius turn, off throttle, being reactive instead of proactive, and allowing it to pendulum.

Again. MY00 with stock bars. Staggered EP tyres (dunlop Z1SS). KW V3 with 515LB square springs. According to the internet, this car should oversteer itself while it sits in the driveway.


https://youtu.be/3FX5Y7Cz95Y