Weight reduction NA with tune and bolt ons VS Base kit SC
 

Hey all,

I have an AP1 and can't decide if I want to go with a CT or SOS SC base kit or reduce weight and dyno tune the car. For about the same amount of money (weight reduction and NA will likely cost a little more) I can reduce ~100 pounds, add full bolt ons, upgrade diff (stage 1.5 puddymod) with 4.44 gears, and purchase a stand alone EMS and have the car dyno tuned. The 2nd option with a base kit SC also sounds like a good option. While the SC may sound like the obvious choice, I'm leaning more towards NA as it will likely be more reliable and fun to build as it can be done step by step versus just saving ~7K and have the SC thrown on. I could also SC later once all the weight reduction and bolt one have been done. Thought and opinions greatly appreciated!

You will not get anymore horsepower by weight reduction and a minimal increase with the "right" bolt ons, the SOS kit is pretty bulletproof as is the Comptech kit from what I have read and seen. You should not experience any reliability issues with either, turbocharging is a different game though. :drive:

Have you ever ridden in a boosted S2000? If not, you should. Boost and weight reduction are the way to go in my humble opinion.

I've been tempted by the Supercharge idea but I have resisted. I am sure it is a wonderful improvement. But, I suspect I would end up losing my drivers license in short order. :)

Is the purpose to improve lap times or is this only a street cruiser? If the former well as the saying goes HP increases speeds in the straights weigh reduction increases speeds everywhere. If this is street car I couldn't see going crazy in weight savings but maybe that's just me.

For now the car is a weekend warrior, losing 100 ibs from the car is fairly easy and shouldn't really impact comfort. Never been in a boosted S.

Agree on the useless of "weight savings." Unless you're turning the car into a race car and gutting it and are getting beat by 1/10 second per lap. Just like golf it's not us, it's our equipment. Skip the cheeseburgers at lunch. :) Same weight savings, and the car won't be any faster, but at least you'll look better. :)

The S2000 engine is pretty much maxed out as is. Even custom exhaust, intakes, and individual throttle bodies can only gain a small amount of power (e.g. the Speed Academy BadasS2000 in Toronto). A supercharger will bolt on in a weekend but the entry fee for this performance seems to start at $4,000.

-- Chuck

Ive had this car supercharged at all incremental boost levels with the pinnacle ending up being a water/meth injected 18-19 psi with a Novi1200/Comptech retrofit, which put me around 450whp. Last couple years ive been back to NA with lowered vtec and typical bolt ons, no real weight savings because I cant go without AC/DD comforts.

A base 6psi supercharger is marginally quicker then a lightened NA/tuned car, its not earth shattering. In fact you might find it disappointing because your expectations are so much higher for the car when you finally go boost, but your adding roughly 80lb and most all the power at that little boost level only starts to overcome that weight at about 6k and building peak power at redline.

A base kit will be new and fun for a week and then you will get used to it, ultimately just wetting your pallet for more, and then comes the road the rest of us have found ourselves on, more boost and never quite being satisfied. With this road comes more money, more broken parts and sometimes after years of this life, you decide to throw in the towel and go back to where you started which is NA because you cant bare to sell the car, but cant bare to keep dealing with problems and an empty wallet either.

Now ive generally had bad luck compared to many with blowing rear ends, trans and motors regularly, so depending on how you drive, frequency and everything else, could be worth going down that road, but you wont really know till you get there. Just wanted to share my experience. I have no plans to go back to boost. Ive adjusted/re learned to appreciate the power it has with a few tweaks ive done and really just enjoy not having that gut worry anymore wondering if im going to have any car drama this time I take it out for a drive today. I get to road course my car once a year with friends too which I enjoy and still put down faster lap times then cars with much more power, Supercharged S2000 included. You can still build a reasonable NA bolt on S2000 that can be wicked fast in the right hands and more importantly reliable with longevity. Boost in this car is super fun though, all the way up until it isn't.

boost it !!!!

if you goal is to make your car accelerate faster in a straight line then all mods that dont include boost is nothing but a heartache and a waste of time. Boost can turn a slow car into a fast one. NA mods will turn a slow s2000 into a slightly less slow s2000.

:thumbup: I enjoyed your well-written and thoughtful insight. A shame it will likely fall on deaf ears.

This says it all.
I personally like the NA engine of the S2000. I may tune and lower VTEC but will stop at that. I've got most bolt ons done as well. Not a big bump in power but noticeable improvements.

Whichever route you choose, make sure the mods are reversible and keep your OEM parts. Watching S2000s on Bring a Trailer makes me realize how much more valuable stock/stockish examples are and will continue to be. Plus S2000s are so great as is!

What "bolt ons" are recommended for a NA AP1? And as far as lowering VTEC, at what rpm is best to lower VTEC to (3500-3600 or 5000-5800) and how it this best accomplished given the lack of programmable stock ECM and the unsat options/cost with piggyback or replacements.

As an aside all my 2003 has is a modded air intake and Skunk2 racing exhaust.

I like my NA S just fine as is.

One vote for staying away from boost and working on making it more reliable, and more lightweight. In saying that, to each his own

VAFC NEO with HFC or TP and a wideband to monitor/street tune your fueling. On a typical ap1 by lowering vtec and leaning out the overly rich fueling from 8-9k you can gain 8-12whp peak at about 4800rpm and another 5-8whp up top. Typical vtec lowing point for an F22 is 3600rpm, for an ap1 it can be anywhere from there to around 4200rpm, just depends. Use the wideband to tune this. If you go rich at engagement its set too low. You want a seamless transition in afr or slightly go leaner to know your increasing breathing.

So, I don't usually start useless arguments about nothing, but there's plenty of NA power to be had in this engine. I'm not ripping into you - I'm attacking the "Speed" """"""""Academy""""""""" guys here...
"Speed" "Academy" (Please do your own finger quotes) demonstrated a pitiable lack of knowledge and understanding in their build series. It's no surprise they couldn't make power, and couldn't get it running right.
There are so many tuning misconceptions out there, and the idea that this engine is maxed out NA is one of the most enduring ones. The engine is not maxed out NA, far from it, but the entry fee for "real" NA power is equal to the entry fee for bolt-on FI, and the return is lower.
You don't need unicorn hardware to make good NA power either.
Maybe it's because I've been tuning real NA engines my whole life (read, motorcycle engines) but an engine with good head geometry that makes 120 stock NA hp per liter doesn't sound like a unicorn to me, it sounds like a middle of the road starting point with lots of headroom... Because that's what it is.

Regarding lowering VTEC - It looks great on a dyno plot, but you'll be significantly faster by simply learning to be in the right gear at the right speed... There's only a few places in the real world where you'll ever drop out of VTEC, and most of them are tight hairpins in the mountains... The ones with little the yellow signs that have laughably low numbers on them...
NA, the car is begging for a 4.57 or 4.77 final drive ratio, to push 2nd gear vtec engagement down around 40, and the 6th top speed to a more usable number. The 1-2 split is so large it makes first gear useless for anything but getting started.

So much this. This should be an all-bold sticky at the top of the "modifications" board.

This is very true, assuming you're putting together a straight-line machine.

The more I drive this car on my local winding mountain roads the better I get at keeping the car up in the revs. Makes huge difference and it isn't difficult once you get used to it.

Haha, glad you agree.