Exactly! I think this is partly why FWD cars can be such great drivers in the winter snow. You can get in over your head and easily back off and unless you are right on the edge, it can be saved.

I always liked this one...

Understeer = you are looking forward to see what you might crash into
Oversteer = you can't see backwards to what you crashed into

 

What about throttle lift-off oversteer? That can help with turn-in.

 

I mentioned that, it's more technical name is Trailing Throttle Oversteer.

 

I can oversteer plenty fine with my 225/255 setup when I trail-brake

 

What tire pressures do you usually use?

 

so... does anyone have a recommendation on how i can get some oversteer back? less aggressive rear alignment?

my impression is that a stiffer sway bar will make that respective end (front or rear) break off easier than without the bar. ala: install front sway bar to get more understeer.

 

There is an old saying:

Oversteer is when the passenger gets scared.
Understeer is when the driver gets scared.

There is NOTHING any scarier than turning the steering wheel and having the car continue going in a straight line, toward some immovable object. Oversteer, on the other hand, doesn't scare a (good) driver at all, beause you still have total control over the car, but getting sideways usually does scare passengers. Passengers don't feel understeer, because the car isn't doing anything but going straight.

Saki GT, I'm not really positive about the tire size increase and AP2 conbination you're running, but I *think* you may be right, and that you may just need to adjust to the cars altered dynamics. How much pressure are you running in the tires? With a larger footprint, all else being equal, you want to run less pressure to keep the contact patch from bownig out. Might be worth checking the tire temps across the tread to see how the tires are contacting the road.

Dyhppy, to answer your two original questions ...

1) More or less oversteer - One of the factors that persuaded me to buy an early AP1 was the stronger bias toward oversteer, and the KAAZ makes it even easier to get the tail out when you want, but that is NOT necessarily what I'd want in a DD. The AP2, and even the later AP1's (to a lesser degree) are more confidence enspiring at higher speeds, and my preference is to have my cake and eat it too. Right now my car is a perfect match for my driving style and the events I most often compete in, but the car doesn't suit me nearly as well on the track. If things ever settle down enough around here for me to get back to playing with the car, I intend to install a Gendron FSB (thin wall center section), which should let me keep my current handling on full soft, and dial in more understeer (or less oversteer) for higher speed events.

The S2000 really doesn't have "snap oversteer," but the low profile tires don't give a lot of warning. For more warning you'd want a taller sidewall and less aggressive compound (both of which trade grip and response for more warning before breakaway).

2) What I *think* is happening is that the extra grip you have in the back now is letting you put down more power, shifting more weight to the back of the car and unloading the front tires more, making them slide (or IOW, making the car "push"). "Fixing it" could be as simple as adjusting to the new dynamics, but I'm not really sure. Check the tire temps and adjust the alignment and tire pressures based on the temps, and see how that affects things. More negative camber up front *might* help, but again, I'm not really positive. Try to correct the "problem" with your driving technique before changing anything you can't easly change back. If you want a LOT more oversteer, there are some fat rear anti-sway bars available that will make any S2000 more tail happy. A fatter rear bar is apt to be too much, but combined with a fatter (and adjustable) FSB would allow you to dial in the car better, and you probably need greater roll resistancwe with the extra grip anyway.

Sorry I can't offer more specific advice, but I have no experience at all in tuning the AP2 handling, and (for me at least) it would involve a bit of trial and error. I have stayed with the OEM S02's because I know that I'll have to do some major suspension mods to get the handling I want once I increase grip, and four years into owning the car I haven't felt the need to go that route (yet). It is coming though, because once the S02's we put on the car this summer are worn out we're going to Pilot Sport Cups, and at that point I expect to be essentially starting all over with the suspension tuning. I have some feel for what I'll need to do to sort it out once the tires are upgraded, but even after four years on S02's, I really can't be sure what I'm going to have to do after upgrading the rubber. Tire upgrades are the biggest handling change we ever make to a car, and it affects every aspect of the handling.

LOL, I can't help much, but I'll be watching this thread to see how you guys end up dealing with this. Interesting stuff.

 

I have to call BS on this.

I have understeered off track at high speed. I have oversteered off track at high speed. Oversteering off track is ABSOLUTELY more scary than understeering off track. Neither one is a bowl of peaches, though.

Understeer also easier to recover from, especially in the S2000.

 

[QUOTE=dyhppy,Dec 21 2007, 03:22 PM]so...

 

Well Mike, you're just too quick to call .

The track is not the street (and I'm tempted to be as rude as you and just say "end of discussion," but that's one of the differences between you and me.

On the street (which is what I assume we're talking about here) the scarriest thing in the world is having a car that does not respond to the steering inputs and goes straight no matter what you do. When the tail slides the car still resonds to your control inputs, but with understeer you've lost all steering and you just run into whatever is in your path.

The street and autocrossing is NOT the same as the track, and most of the time when you and I disagree it's because you are only looking at your track experience, and I'm looking at whatever the person asking the quesiton is actually asking about.

So I'll just all on applying track experience to the rest of the world. You can say or believe anything you like, and call bs all you like, but it won't make the situations all the same. Track <> street <> autocross.