PPG Dogbox will be tested soon in Inline Pro Race car...stay tuned....Inline Pro will also be exculsively offering the unit.

 

http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/default.htm has them for an AP1.

About $4000 US Dollars.

 

I am not sure the technical aspect of the CDV, there are way more knowledgable people on this board that could explain it better. But if the "pause" between clutch and gas pedal you are getting at high rpm shifts is the car, not you, it is most likely the CDV.

Christian

 

Please don't even repeat that kind of stuff. Many of us have had dozens of cars and driven many others with manual transmissions that do not require the precision shifts this one does. There are not thousands of us that fail to know how to drive only when we get in this car... there is one transmission design that is flawed.

 

I've owned 14 cars throughout my life (8 Hondas). Comparing the S2000 with "thousands" of other cars is like comparing an Audiovox radio to a Krell amp.

Redline shifts in the S2000 is a precision task, whether it's at 8200 RPM in an AP2 or 8900+ RPM in an AP1. The difference in the stresses encountered in the transmission of an S2000 during a redline shift - and in the "thousands" of other cars at their redline is significant. Name 10 RWD cars off the top of your head that have an 8000+ redline. The RX-8 comes to mind, and some of the owners of RX-8s have the same complaint at 9000 RPM shifts. One could state it's because the S2000's and RX-8's transmission are both made by the same manufacturer. There may be some validity to this.
The problem is more likely due to the fact your average driver doesn't have the skill required to accurately accomplish a redline shift at those RPMs, and ends up mushrooming their synchros very quickly after continual attempts at banging out super-quick 1-2 shifts (street racing). It doesn't take much abuse to screw up your synchros.
This is why Honda decided to go with the 2.2l in the AP2 - to reduce the incidence of damage to the synchros by reducing the redline, and subsequently the precision required to shift accurately. I don't care how many manual cars you've driven. The likelihood an S2000 owner has previously owned a car that actually requires some skill to drive and shift is very low. There are a couple S2000 owners that also own exotics - but they're the exception - not the rule.
This is not an Integra Type-R, or some other rice-boy sport compact. And as such, a number of current S2000 owners that graduated from the Sport Compact crowd have had to learn this is not an idiot proof car - like Civics, RSXs, Integras, Celicas etc.. Those cars are built to the least common denominator and can take a little more abuse and sloppy shifting. The S2000 is a precision machine and subsequently doesn't respond well to half-assed driving and street racing. One of the biggest mistakes Honda made was to introduce the S2000 at such a low price point. They would have sold nearly as many at $40k, and had a fraction of the transmission problems associated with immature drivers. With that being said, I wouldn't have been able to afford the S2000 at the time I purchased mine new. The S2000 is one of those cars I would not buy used.

For note: the addition of the CDV was to slow the engagement of the clutch to prevent idiots from destroying their diffs with clutch dumps. It has no effect on the disengagement of the clutch, only the release - and is not related to the 1-2 shift grind problem.

 

Slipstream seems to grasp a big part of the problem regarding how the driver figures in very well. Pfitzner Performance(PPGearbox) gearsets arent really in the cards for most people who end up with worn trannys due to abuse. A lighter foot, or at least more precise and descriminating driving is probably a more attainable solution, if an unlikely one.

Also, most transmissions are heavily stressed while shifting at very high RPMs. Its just the nature of most mass produced gear boxes - even if it is one mated to a high revving engine like that in a s2000 or a rx8.
A slightly unrelated but relevant example is that of a few people with SR20s in 240sxs who have designed solid valve train components which, along with other goodies allow for a redline in excess of 9500rpm. The problem is that the transmission literally wont shift past 9000-9200 rpm, either that, or they destroy themselves if kept in that range excessively.
All engineering has its limits, and whether those limits are dictated by money(usually the case), or something on a mechanical level; you have clearly demonstrated that you have reached the structural limits of your transmission.

If youre willing to admit your abuse of the transmission, I dont think its entirely fair to place all of the fault on it as well.

 

The driver/owner of a car almost always determines the condition of a car,how long it's parts last and such.Coming from a celica GTS with a 8200rpm redline and frequenting celica forums ,I find that they have atleast 2-3 ppl a month claiming to have seized thier engines,torn the head apart from high rpm mis-shifts and the s2000 transmission is even more touchy than the c60 in the 7th gen celicas.How ever what does leave me clueless is cars that have a high redline always seem to run into people having problems with the transmission and its eludes me to why the manufacturers don't look into fixing such a problem.

 

Here are a few of my opinions on the matter. YMMV

I have found that I must force myself to pause (while depressing clutch and backing off gas) before shifting into second to allow the engine enough time to slow down to match revs that will be needed in 2nd gear. Only then is it easy to do a redline 1-2 shift w/o grinding the 2nd gear synchros. I bought MY02 AP1 used, so the previous owner could possibly have mushroomed the synchro teeth already. I have never driven a brand new S2000 to compare.

I am SURE that high RPM, an H pattern shifter, a bumpy ride, and a light duty tranny all combine with most driver's eagerness to get into 2nd right NOW to play hell on 2nd gear synchros.

A lighter flywheel will allow the engine to slow down at a quicker rate between shifts. And a closer gap in between 1-2 gear ratios would lower the number of RPMs it would have to drop. These two determine the amount of delay time needed to rev match.

A sequential shifter would not need as much finnese / technique / talent.

 

I don't want to get involved in the argument about whether this is a driver problem or a problem with the car, so all I'll say about that issue is that I personally believe that it's an incompatability between the car and the driver. In the world of sports cars this is not that uncommon. The earliest example I have actual experience with was the MGA. There was no synchro in first, and I *never* met an MGA drive who did not *insist* that the second gear synchro was weak. Worse, almost every MGA I ever drove had the synchros wrecked before I got my hands on the car. However, when I purchased an MGA with good synchros, and drove it something like 60,000 hard miles with no synchro problems I came to believee that the driver *must* be a factor.

At redline, my AP1 shifts extremely quickly once warmed up, and will only grind if I totally blow a shift. Here's a video for those who think the AP1's shift slowly due to some flaw in the car (the vid shows that mine doesn't shift slowly, and the only difference I can see is the driver).

Please right-click and save-as.

AP2's have a heavier flywheel and other differences that might make quick shifting impossible (I don't reallly know) but it is not a problem with an AP1 in good repair and a competent driver. My car sees this kind of shift on a regular basis, and so has every other AP1 I've driven, so if it *is* the car, then I must have a magic touch that makes all the "defects" vanish.

 

Ok, Ok!

I believe all of you have very valid points.

There is car/human interface and so it would be unfair to blame just the car.

BTW, the car crunches in the 1>2 and 2>3 at low rpm shifts as well. Even after the fluid has warmed up.

I am thinking of purchasing the Competition Clutch Flywheel which weighs 11 lbs.. So that mght help! Especially if double clutching.

I was thinking of the ACT Pro Street Flywheel at 9 lbs, but I think that maybe a little lite.