Bullet Proof Transmission
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From: Torrance
I'll share my experience with my MY03 transmission problems. I had the same 1-2 shift "crunch/grind" since I first bought the car in 2003. I hardly ever "need" to shift that high so I was somewhat babying (even then it would sometimes grind) my car in that shift. I've driven many different cars and never had problems shifting unless the tranny was messed up to begin with.
2-3 I could shift as fast and hard without any hiccups, same as any other upshift besides 1-2. After trying the synchromesh stuff that didn't help at all either (somewhat with the cold shifting in low gear). It still grinded in a high rpm 1-2 shift. I changed it back to the oem honda mtf and it was still there. This was around 32,xxx miles.
Since then I added some mods to my car and they made around 20+hp and tq (around 210whp). Since adding the parts the grinding has gone away...So this got me thinking that maybe my car was underpowered the whole time and now with the new found power it's fine? lol...it's just a theory so take it for what it's worth....but I have not grinded the tranny once since making more power. I was planning on taking my car to get the tranny checked out before the mods since I have an extended warranty on the car but the problem seems to be gone...at least for now (3 months and going)
mods list:
aem ems
5 zigen header
skunk2 exhaust (i have since taken off the exhaust but still no grinds)
Even though I don't grind anymore. I still have a very notchy tranny when shifting from 1st to 2nd (cold/warm or low/high rpm)
2-3 I could shift as fast and hard without any hiccups, same as any other upshift besides 1-2. After trying the synchromesh stuff that didn't help at all either (somewhat with the cold shifting in low gear). It still grinded in a high rpm 1-2 shift. I changed it back to the oem honda mtf and it was still there. This was around 32,xxx miles.
Since then I added some mods to my car and they made around 20+hp and tq (around 210whp). Since adding the parts the grinding has gone away...So this got me thinking that maybe my car was underpowered the whole time and now with the new found power it's fine? lol...it's just a theory so take it for what it's worth....but I have not grinded the tranny once since making more power. I was planning on taking my car to get the tranny checked out before the mods since I have an extended warranty on the car but the problem seems to be gone...at least for now (3 months and going)
mods list:
aem ems
5 zigen header
skunk2 exhaust (i have since taken off the exhaust but still no grinds)
Even though I don't grind anymore. I still have a very notchy tranny when shifting from 1st to 2nd (cold/warm or low/high rpm)
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Chicago/Scottsdale
Originally Posted by hecash,Apr 9 2007, 03:36 PM
I've been driving manual for more than 40 years and this is not the worst transmission (Renault) I've driven but it's way up in the top 5.
Just wondering, what kind of fluid are you sportin Harry?
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So can someone tell my how a lightened flywheel will help with shifting?
I can't see this at all, because you are shifting when the clutch is depressed. So the inertia when shifting, is strictly from the clutch disc and the input shaft and the gears on the input shaft.
A lightened clutch disc would cut down on inertia and therefore slow the input shaft down faster, making the shift easier as the synchros wouldn't have to work as hard.
Does this make sense?
I can't see this at all, because you are shifting when the clutch is depressed. So the inertia when shifting, is strictly from the clutch disc and the input shaft and the gears on the input shaft.
A lightened clutch disc would cut down on inertia and therefore slow the input shaft down faster, making the shift easier as the synchros wouldn't have to work as hard.
Does this make sense?
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,087
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by RGlbk,Apr 9 2007, 05:17 PM
So can someone tell my how a lightened flywheel will help with shifting?
I can't see this at all, because you are shifting when the clutch is depressed. So the inertia when shifting, is strictly from the clutch disc and the input shaft and the gears on the input shaft.
A lightened clutch disc would cut down on inertia and therefore slow the input shaft down faster, making the shift easier as the synchros wouldn't have to work as hard.
Does this make sense?
I can't see this at all, because you are shifting when the clutch is depressed. So the inertia when shifting, is strictly from the clutch disc and the input shaft and the gears on the input shaft.
A lightened clutch disc would cut down on inertia and therefore slow the input shaft down faster, making the shift easier as the synchros wouldn't have to work as hard.
Does this make sense?
A lighter flywheel will make the car harder (for most people) to launch, and if one is having shifting problems because they shift too slowly, the lightened flywheel would only make the problem worse.
Personally I think a lighter flywheel is not a good idea for people who are having general shifting problems. They're for people who can shift the stock car quickly and effectively already and want a little more (ie. quicker shifts).
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,273
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From: tiverton
Ive been battling this issue since ive owned the car.I bought the car used with 12k on the clock my 01.It grinded like hell from the get go.I rebuilt the trans (new and improved parts)and it shifted like butter for about 3k and then started to grind second gear again.I then replaced the trans with a my 04 box.The new box is better but it will still sometimes grind only second gear.I have had many customers come into the dealership and complain on this issue.I have to say that i believe its a design flaw.
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by RGlbk,Apr 9 2007, 08:56 PM
with RED MX5
This car does require a little "technique," and those who see that as a flaw may not be happy with the car. You also have to rev the things to 9k (or 8k) to go fast, and those who see that as a flaw like the car either. All specialty cars make some demands on the driver, and people who don't like the demands shouldn't buy the cars (unless they like the cars in spite of the demands
).There is actually a lot involved in a smooth shift, but if you're getting it all right and still having problems then it probably IS your transmission or clutch. These cars have a great reliability record, but they are not perfect, and some are bound to have transmission problems.
If you have a new S2000 and are having problems you should probably discuss it with your dealer. If they say it is you rather than the car, ask them to show you what you are doing wrong.
I have to believe that if this was a design flaw then it would show up in the JD Power and other reliability reports, and it doesn't.
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Originally Posted by slipstream444,Apr 3 2007, 02:38 AM
I've owned 14 cars throughout my life (8 Hondas). Comparing the S2000 with "thousands" of other cars is like comparing an Audiovox radio to a Krell amp.
Redline shifts in the S2000 is a precision task, whether it's at 8200 RPM in an AP2 or 8900+ RPM in an AP1. The difference in the stresses encountered in the transmission of an S2000 during a redline shift - and in the "thousands" of other cars at their redline is significant. Name 10 RWD cars off the top of your head that have an 8000+ redline. The RX-8 comes to mind, and some of the owners of RX-8s have the same complaint at 9000 RPM shifts. One could state it's because the S2000's and RX-8's transmission are both made by the same manufacturer. There may be some validity to this.
The problem is more likely due to the fact your average driver doesn't have the skill required to accurately accomplish a redline shift at those RPMs, and ends up mushrooming their synchros very quickly after continual attempts at banging out super-quick 1-2 shifts (street racing). It doesn't take much abuse to screw up your synchros.
This is why Honda decided to go with the 2.2l in the AP2 - to reduce the incidence of damage to the synchros by reducing the redline, and subsequently the precision required to shift accurately. I don't care how many manual cars you've driven. The likelihood an S2000 owner has previously owned a car that actually requires some skill to drive and shift is very low. There are a couple S2000 owners that also own exotics - but they're the exception - not the rule.
This is not an Integra Type-R, or some other rice-boy sport compact. And as such, a number of current S2000 owners that graduated from the Sport Compact crowd have had to learn this is not an idiot proof car - like Civics, RSXs, Integras, Celicas etc.. Those cars are built to the least common denominator and can take a little more abuse and sloppy shifting. The S2000 is a precision machine and subsequently doesn't respond well to half-assed driving and street racing. One of the biggest mistakes Honda made was to introduce the S2000 at such a low price point. They would have sold nearly as many at $40k, and had a fraction of the transmission problems associated with immature drivers. With that being said, I wouldn't have been able to afford the S2000 at the time I purchased mine new. The S2000 is one of those cars I would not buy used.
For note: the addition of the CDV was to slow the engagement of the clutch to prevent idiots from destroying their diffs with clutch dumps. It has no effect on the disengagement of the clutch, only the release - and is not related to the 1-2 shift grind problem.
Redline shifts in the S2000 is a precision task, whether it's at 8200 RPM in an AP2 or 8900+ RPM in an AP1. The difference in the stresses encountered in the transmission of an S2000 during a redline shift - and in the "thousands" of other cars at their redline is significant. Name 10 RWD cars off the top of your head that have an 8000+ redline. The RX-8 comes to mind, and some of the owners of RX-8s have the same complaint at 9000 RPM shifts. One could state it's because the S2000's and RX-8's transmission are both made by the same manufacturer. There may be some validity to this.
The problem is more likely due to the fact your average driver doesn't have the skill required to accurately accomplish a redline shift at those RPMs, and ends up mushrooming their synchros very quickly after continual attempts at banging out super-quick 1-2 shifts (street racing). It doesn't take much abuse to screw up your synchros.
This is why Honda decided to go with the 2.2l in the AP2 - to reduce the incidence of damage to the synchros by reducing the redline, and subsequently the precision required to shift accurately. I don't care how many manual cars you've driven. The likelihood an S2000 owner has previously owned a car that actually requires some skill to drive and shift is very low. There are a couple S2000 owners that also own exotics - but they're the exception - not the rule.
This is not an Integra Type-R, or some other rice-boy sport compact. And as such, a number of current S2000 owners that graduated from the Sport Compact crowd have had to learn this is not an idiot proof car - like Civics, RSXs, Integras, Celicas etc.. Those cars are built to the least common denominator and can take a little more abuse and sloppy shifting. The S2000 is a precision machine and subsequently doesn't respond well to half-assed driving and street racing. One of the biggest mistakes Honda made was to introduce the S2000 at such a low price point. They would have sold nearly as many at $40k, and had a fraction of the transmission problems associated with immature drivers. With that being said, I wouldn't have been able to afford the S2000 at the time I purchased mine new. The S2000 is one of those cars I would not buy used.
For note: the addition of the CDV was to slow the engagement of the clutch to prevent idiots from destroying their diffs with clutch dumps. It has no effect on the disengagement of the clutch, only the release - and is not related to the 1-2 shift grind problem.
I came from a turbo 00 Civic Ex to a BMW M3 to the S and also a RX-8 and if you have half a brain you can drive all the cars. In fact, the M3 was by far the hardest to shift fast/well since the 3rd and 5th gear spacing was so narrow. The S grinding isn't due to poor driving, almost any car that is changing gears at that high an engine speed will occasionally grind a gear, deal with it. Our S has 95,000 miles autocrossed and tracked it's whole life and it's just fine. My gf learned how to drive manual on it and autocrossed it 3 weeks after she learned with no issues.
Also I'm not sure about the S and RX8 sharing the same tranny, it may be by the same company but it's sure as hell not the same unit. I should know, I drove both on a daily basis.