Cylinder head R&D project is a go
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,895
Likes: 1
From: You wish
Cylinder head R&D project is a go
This thread may get moved to another forum as it involves money, but this topic started here, so I figured that's where I'd put it.
The flow bench will be in place Friday or Monday and the F20C R&D project has first dibs on it. I expect the full effort to take about 3-4 weeks. I have also agreed to put some of my time into the effort. I'll be there documenting, helping guide the research and generally getting in the way :-). Just kidding, I was invited to participate.
We have been graced by a most generous corporate sponsor, who has agreed to chip in $500 towards the effort in return for publishing rights. I will chip in a minimum of $100 and I know of one other person who is a go, so I'm holding a spot for him.
I'm going to get final pricing info tomorrow. I think we'll be looking at $1200+shipping for the head and if there is enough interest, I'd like to include an intake manifold too so we can measure the whole system. I expect total cost to be in the $1500 range.
So, what that means is that if you're interested, there are about 8 spots left at a minimum of $100/spot. In return, you'll get first access to all the data, in raw, unedited form if you so choose. I mean flow numbers, chamber and port volumes, projected hp gains based upon engine simulations, etc. Additionally, if you decide to have your head ported, your contribution will be deducted from the regular price (probably in the $1000-$1200 range depending on the work done). This R&D project is guaranteeing nothing else except for information. There may be little in the way of flow gains to be found. There may be a lot. I don't know, which is why I want this project done before I pull the head off my car. If you like, think of it as a highly risky investment, or even better, insurance against bad headwork.
One way or another, the project will go forward even if I pay for it all myself, but I appreciate the interest some of you have shown in sharing in the expense. If you're wondering what the porter gets out of it, well, he doesn't have to buy a head, so his investment is only time. Also, he gets to be one of the first to have detailed, documented knowledge on the F20C head, which is good for his business - especially if he finds good gains and generates interest. He also avoids having to experiment on a customer head.
If you're interested, please post here. I'll email you with information about the porter, how we'll handle the finances (through a corporate account), etc. Then if you have any questions you can contact the porter, etc. and make a decision. As I've said previously, he isn't an industry name, but he's proven to me that he's damn good. I want to act quickly, so if you're interested, let me know by Friday. If somone wants to chip in more than $100, I'll be happy to allow it, but that means the number of available participants goes down. Under $100 means too many people, so, sorry, but no go.
UL
The flow bench will be in place Friday or Monday and the F20C R&D project has first dibs on it. I expect the full effort to take about 3-4 weeks. I have also agreed to put some of my time into the effort. I'll be there documenting, helping guide the research and generally getting in the way :-). Just kidding, I was invited to participate.
We have been graced by a most generous corporate sponsor, who has agreed to chip in $500 towards the effort in return for publishing rights. I will chip in a minimum of $100 and I know of one other person who is a go, so I'm holding a spot for him.
I'm going to get final pricing info tomorrow. I think we'll be looking at $1200+shipping for the head and if there is enough interest, I'd like to include an intake manifold too so we can measure the whole system. I expect total cost to be in the $1500 range.
So, what that means is that if you're interested, there are about 8 spots left at a minimum of $100/spot. In return, you'll get first access to all the data, in raw, unedited form if you so choose. I mean flow numbers, chamber and port volumes, projected hp gains based upon engine simulations, etc. Additionally, if you decide to have your head ported, your contribution will be deducted from the regular price (probably in the $1000-$1200 range depending on the work done). This R&D project is guaranteeing nothing else except for information. There may be little in the way of flow gains to be found. There may be a lot. I don't know, which is why I want this project done before I pull the head off my car. If you like, think of it as a highly risky investment, or even better, insurance against bad headwork.
One way or another, the project will go forward even if I pay for it all myself, but I appreciate the interest some of you have shown in sharing in the expense. If you're wondering what the porter gets out of it, well, he doesn't have to buy a head, so his investment is only time. Also, he gets to be one of the first to have detailed, documented knowledge on the F20C head, which is good for his business - especially if he finds good gains and generates interest. He also avoids having to experiment on a customer head.
If you're interested, please post here. I'll email you with information about the porter, how we'll handle the finances (through a corporate account), etc. Then if you have any questions you can contact the porter, etc. and make a decision. As I've said previously, he isn't an industry name, but he's proven to me that he's damn good. I want to act quickly, so if you're interested, let me know by Friday. If somone wants to chip in more than $100, I'll be happy to allow it, but that means the number of available participants goes down. Under $100 means too many people, so, sorry, but no go.
UL
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,562
Likes: 0
From: Honolulu
Count me in UL. I'm not a tuner, so the raw data won't mean anything to me (meaning I won't understand it), but if there are gains to be had by porting and they're substantial, I might consider doing the work. In any case, it's worth the research and I trust your expertise.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
From: Delray Beach
I'm in for a hundee - curious minds want to know!
The head data will also enable us to evaluate and confirm gains for the debut of any Toda equipment, as well as consider fabricated modification. I'd be curious to not only know intake manifold flow from the stock TB, but also from the 70 mm Proflow. Anyway I'm in - for any and all data you can determine.
The head data will also enable us to evaluate and confirm gains for the debut of any Toda equipment, as well as consider fabricated modification. I'd be curious to not only know intake manifold flow from the stock TB, but also from the 70 mm Proflow. Anyway I'm in - for any and all data you can determine.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,895
Likes: 1
From: You wish
Nick,
I'm a big fan of cylinder head work (I've had some great results on previous Honda's I've owned). However, I refuse to give my head to someone who has never ported one before. Furthermore, a good porter will do a lot of R&D on a test head before ever taking a grinder to a customer head.
As I think headwork, along with cams, will be one of the few large power gainers on the S2K, I want to give a head porter a bare cylinder head to experiment on. In return, the porter will do the development work for free. I will do this for my own edification, but others have expressed interest in the project, hence my post.
UL
I'm a big fan of cylinder head work (I've had some great results on previous Honda's I've owned). However, I refuse to give my head to someone who has never ported one before. Furthermore, a good porter will do a lot of R&D on a test head before ever taking a grinder to a customer head.
As I think headwork, along with cams, will be one of the few large power gainers on the S2K, I want to give a head porter a bare cylinder head to experiment on. In return, the porter will do the development work for free. I will do this for my own edification, but others have expressed interest in the project, hence my post.
UL
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: Beverly Hills
How much power can a car like the s2k hope to get from headwork? I don't know very much on the subject so any info would help. What exactly does headwork mean
Sorry for the stupidity guys/gals! I may be interested , email some more info before I sign up!!!
Sorry for the stupidity guys/gals! I may be interested , email some more info before I sign up!!!
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,895
Likes: 1
From: You wish
A short primer on headwork.
Headwork, or cylinder head porting, is a means of optimizing airflow through the cylinder head of an internal combustion engine. Airflow is the key to engine power. Provided we can add enough fuel, more airflow means more power.
What causes air to flow from the atmosphere into the cylinder of a piston engine is a pressure differential. As the piston goes down on the intake stroke, it creates a low pressure area. This creates a pressure differential with the outside atmosphere and air flows in (this is oversimplified, but sufficient for our purposes).
Along its journey, the airflow encounters many obstacles. After the intake system, it has to pass over the throttle body plate. Then it has to take a 90 degree turn to get into one of the intake runners. From there it takes another turn in the intake port and then has to pass between the valve and valve seat before it enters the chamber. All these obstructions can be minimized to improve flow - particularly where we must turn the airstream. Furthermore, they (and parts of the combustion chamber/piston interface) can be carefully tailored to improve swirl and/or tumble, terms used to indicate the energy of the air - turbulent, high energy air tends to create a more homogenous air/fuel mixture, and homogenous mixtures are easier to ignite and burn completely (and quickly).
Now, the benefits of headwork depend on many factors. The first is how good the stock head is. Honda DOHC VTEC heads are very good. Thus, the 20-25% gains some older domestic V8s see from good headwork won't happen for us. However, Honda heads are pretty much machine processed and compromises are made to speed assembly and reduce costs. Even the Integra Type-R has minimal hand porting done. Thus, there is room for improvement, usually in the valve seat and valve head area, and occasionally in the combustion chamber. The ports themselves rarely need much work. It's likely that _potential_ gains from just headwork will range from 5-10% maximum. That's assuming that we can fuel and tune for the additional airflow - an unknown as yet. However, such gains will likely come across the rpm range. I've been pleasantly surprised by the low rpm power gains that come from good porting work on DOHC VTEC engines, possibly because the low valve lift flow numbers improve so much.
In the end, we'll have some idea of the maximum hp potential of a normally aspirated F20C, we'll see some flow improvements and may find some minor compression gains along the way. I would be happy to see a 15 hp gain from good headwork. Combined with some big cams, we could get to that 270-280 hp mark on pump gas that I'd like to be at - NA. However, we really don't know yet, which is why I'd rather spend a little money with a good porter to see what can be done, rather than risk my head and wallet on an uncertainty.
UL
Headwork, or cylinder head porting, is a means of optimizing airflow through the cylinder head of an internal combustion engine. Airflow is the key to engine power. Provided we can add enough fuel, more airflow means more power.
What causes air to flow from the atmosphere into the cylinder of a piston engine is a pressure differential. As the piston goes down on the intake stroke, it creates a low pressure area. This creates a pressure differential with the outside atmosphere and air flows in (this is oversimplified, but sufficient for our purposes).
Along its journey, the airflow encounters many obstacles. After the intake system, it has to pass over the throttle body plate. Then it has to take a 90 degree turn to get into one of the intake runners. From there it takes another turn in the intake port and then has to pass between the valve and valve seat before it enters the chamber. All these obstructions can be minimized to improve flow - particularly where we must turn the airstream. Furthermore, they (and parts of the combustion chamber/piston interface) can be carefully tailored to improve swirl and/or tumble, terms used to indicate the energy of the air - turbulent, high energy air tends to create a more homogenous air/fuel mixture, and homogenous mixtures are easier to ignite and burn completely (and quickly).
Now, the benefits of headwork depend on many factors. The first is how good the stock head is. Honda DOHC VTEC heads are very good. Thus, the 20-25% gains some older domestic V8s see from good headwork won't happen for us. However, Honda heads are pretty much machine processed and compromises are made to speed assembly and reduce costs. Even the Integra Type-R has minimal hand porting done. Thus, there is room for improvement, usually in the valve seat and valve head area, and occasionally in the combustion chamber. The ports themselves rarely need much work. It's likely that _potential_ gains from just headwork will range from 5-10% maximum. That's assuming that we can fuel and tune for the additional airflow - an unknown as yet. However, such gains will likely come across the rpm range. I've been pleasantly surprised by the low rpm power gains that come from good porting work on DOHC VTEC engines, possibly because the low valve lift flow numbers improve so much.
In the end, we'll have some idea of the maximum hp potential of a normally aspirated F20C, we'll see some flow improvements and may find some minor compression gains along the way. I would be happy to see a 15 hp gain from good headwork. Combined with some big cams, we could get to that 270-280 hp mark on pump gas that I'd like to be at - NA. However, we really don't know yet, which is why I'd rather spend a little money with a good porter to see what can be done, rather than risk my head and wallet on an uncertainty.
UL