E85 Fuel
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Granite Falls
E85 Fuel
I've been reading lately about E85 fuel, ethanol, that is rapidly coming available across the country. The fuel is a mixture of 85% ethanol and 15% gas, the great thing is that the fuel is about $.75 p/g cheaper than premium gas and runs at 105 octane. I know that several domestic cars openly advertise that running the fuel in their cars is fine, but I've been wondering about the S with the price of gas going up like it is recently. I've been wondering if their would be any negative effects on our cars from using the fuel. I'm assuming that the ECU would adjust for timing and a/f ratio, but my concern would be rather or not it would corrode any parts of the fuel system. We ran methanol in our race karts, and as a fuel it was far superior to gas, but we had to flush it out of the engines and tanks after each race or else it would collect moisture in the fuel tank and corrode the diaphram in the carb. I've been temped to run down to the local station that sells it and put in about 2 gals on an empty tank to see how the car ran, thinking that it if it did not run any better or had negative effects I could just dump a full tank of gas on top and it would wash it out. I know I should consult the owners manual about this, but right now we are receiving the left overs from Katrina and I'm too lazy to go out to the car and get it. So does anyone have any experience with this fuel?
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Joined: Sep 2007
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I know this hasn't been talked about in almost 4 years but i picked up the April issue of import tuner and found some very interesting information about E85, and have acually been thinking about converting over to it. They were able to achive +66.9 hp and +72.8 tq on an EVO VIII with E85. I want to post some info from from the magazine about E85.
E85 VS. Conventional Gasoline
While the supply and demand of E85 remain low, due to its sparse availability, a handful of automotive enthusiasts hasn't been deterred from exploring its benefits; specifically, that E85 has an octane rating-or the industry standard known as Research Octane Number (RON)-approaching 105; a significant jump from your typical 93-octane premium pump gas, but for about the same price. This higher octane rating allows performance enthusiasts to broaden their tuning capabilities, thus increasing power and reducing the chance of detonation with high compression or boosted applications, with the use of an alternative fuel. And E85 burns cleaner; a cup of standard gasoline set on fire will billow a thick plume of black soot. But a cup of Everclear 190 proof alcohol (95% ethanol and 4.4% water) will burn cleaner, without a trace of black smoke.
The Pros And Cons Of Using E85
Pros:
Compared to gasoline, here's a quick overview of what we like about E85:
1 The higher autoignition temperature of Ethanol (689 degrees F, compared to gasoline's 475 degrees F) enables E85 to be more knock-resistant and handle more boost or higher compression.
2 E85 initiates a cooler intake charge, allowing for higher boost pressure.
3 E85 is less volatile than gasoline or low-volume ethanol blends, which results in fewer evaporative emissions. Using E85 also reduces carbon monoxide emissions and provides significant reductions in emissions of many harmful toxins, including benzene, a known human carcinogen.
4 E85's higher resistance to detonation (autoignition) allows tuners to implement more aggressive ignition timing, for improved combustion efficiency.
5 Depending on tuner and engine, a slightly leaner air-fuel ratio (AFR) under partial and wide-open throttle (WOT) can be implemented, helping to increase fuel mileage.
6 The cleaner-burning fuel will minimize residual carbon deposits on intake valves, combustion chambers, and other internal components.
7 At government-subsidized prices, E85 can actually be cheaper to run than gasoline, especially compared to high-octane race gas.
Cons
Converting your vehicle to run on E85 requires commitment and knowledge of proper fuel management tuning. Although the costs of converting a vehicle are relatively low, we found some issues that came up with using E85.
1 At 9.76:1, E85 has a different stoichiometric AFR than gasoline (14.7:1), and requires fuel/timing maps be converted to compensate. We won't go into details with Lambda or stoichiometric values but make sure your tuner is well aware of these changes.
2 E85 requires the use of 40 to 50 percent larger fuel injectors, to compensate for its 40-45 percent increase in fuel demand. The change in stoichiometric AFR from 14.7:1 with gasoline to 9.76:1 with E85 is 66 percent, but the resulting flow needed is only 40 percent greater, due to E85's higher density than gasoline; your vehicle's check engine light (CEL) may flash a "lean condition" code, resultant of this.
3 An aftermarket fuel management system will expand the parameters needed to tune the vehicle to accept the new E85 purging through its system. The car will not run properly on E85 with a factory ECU.
4 Cold starts can become an issue for those who use E85. As we experienced with our test EVO, it took more than a minute to finally get the engine to crank over. This can be a problem for those who live in colder climate areas, but in sunny California, we don't see this as a major concern. To remedy this problem, you can increase the percentage of standard gasoline used in mixture with E85 to initiate cold starts.
5 Since cars running E85 require more fuel, a tank of E85 will not run as far as a tank of gasoline, and more frequent refueling will be needed. Properly tuned, E85-burning cars will range only 80 percent as far as those burning conventional gasoline.
6 Playing with ethanol-to-gasoline mixtures or periodically switching from gasoline to E85 requires changes in fuel pressures. Switching over isn't a simple run-to-the-pump-and-fill scenario
7 Although E85 is not a corrosive material, ethanol has been known to damage certain rubber, seals, and internal engine components. Most vehicles produced prior to 1987 are not compatible with the chemical composition of E85, and some retrofitting of fuel lines, pumps, and vacuum hose may be needed, depending on vehicle.
Converting a vehicle to run E85 could be done in a day's time, by simply draining fuel, changing injectors and tuning. Bigger injectors, a good fuel pump, and E85 are nearly all that is needed. Everything else can be done in the ECU. Shawn Church, owner of Church Automotive and tuner of our E85-powered EVO VIII test vehicle, prefers to tune E85 with a good standalone engine management system, like the AEM EMS. "I'd say that if you have a regular source for E85 available, it's a hell of a good deal; cheaper than gas-especially race gas-and excellent performance. And the owner of this EVO VIII is averaging 16-17 mpg in the city on E85, so the drop-off in economy isn't that noticeable."
With all of that being said.... Has anybody done this yet to the S.
E85 VS. Conventional Gasoline
While the supply and demand of E85 remain low, due to its sparse availability, a handful of automotive enthusiasts hasn't been deterred from exploring its benefits; specifically, that E85 has an octane rating-or the industry standard known as Research Octane Number (RON)-approaching 105; a significant jump from your typical 93-octane premium pump gas, but for about the same price. This higher octane rating allows performance enthusiasts to broaden their tuning capabilities, thus increasing power and reducing the chance of detonation with high compression or boosted applications, with the use of an alternative fuel. And E85 burns cleaner; a cup of standard gasoline set on fire will billow a thick plume of black soot. But a cup of Everclear 190 proof alcohol (95% ethanol and 4.4% water) will burn cleaner, without a trace of black smoke.
The Pros And Cons Of Using E85
Pros:
Compared to gasoline, here's a quick overview of what we like about E85:
1 The higher autoignition temperature of Ethanol (689 degrees F, compared to gasoline's 475 degrees F) enables E85 to be more knock-resistant and handle more boost or higher compression.
2 E85 initiates a cooler intake charge, allowing for higher boost pressure.
3 E85 is less volatile than gasoline or low-volume ethanol blends, which results in fewer evaporative emissions. Using E85 also reduces carbon monoxide emissions and provides significant reductions in emissions of many harmful toxins, including benzene, a known human carcinogen.
4 E85's higher resistance to detonation (autoignition) allows tuners to implement more aggressive ignition timing, for improved combustion efficiency.
5 Depending on tuner and engine, a slightly leaner air-fuel ratio (AFR) under partial and wide-open throttle (WOT) can be implemented, helping to increase fuel mileage.
6 The cleaner-burning fuel will minimize residual carbon deposits on intake valves, combustion chambers, and other internal components.
7 At government-subsidized prices, E85 can actually be cheaper to run than gasoline, especially compared to high-octane race gas.
Cons
Converting your vehicle to run on E85 requires commitment and knowledge of proper fuel management tuning. Although the costs of converting a vehicle are relatively low, we found some issues that came up with using E85.
1 At 9.76:1, E85 has a different stoichiometric AFR than gasoline (14.7:1), and requires fuel/timing maps be converted to compensate. We won't go into details with Lambda or stoichiometric values but make sure your tuner is well aware of these changes.
2 E85 requires the use of 40 to 50 percent larger fuel injectors, to compensate for its 40-45 percent increase in fuel demand. The change in stoichiometric AFR from 14.7:1 with gasoline to 9.76:1 with E85 is 66 percent, but the resulting flow needed is only 40 percent greater, due to E85's higher density than gasoline; your vehicle's check engine light (CEL) may flash a "lean condition" code, resultant of this.
3 An aftermarket fuel management system will expand the parameters needed to tune the vehicle to accept the new E85 purging through its system. The car will not run properly on E85 with a factory ECU.
4 Cold starts can become an issue for those who use E85. As we experienced with our test EVO, it took more than a minute to finally get the engine to crank over. This can be a problem for those who live in colder climate areas, but in sunny California, we don't see this as a major concern. To remedy this problem, you can increase the percentage of standard gasoline used in mixture with E85 to initiate cold starts.
5 Since cars running E85 require more fuel, a tank of E85 will not run as far as a tank of gasoline, and more frequent refueling will be needed. Properly tuned, E85-burning cars will range only 80 percent as far as those burning conventional gasoline.
6 Playing with ethanol-to-gasoline mixtures or periodically switching from gasoline to E85 requires changes in fuel pressures. Switching over isn't a simple run-to-the-pump-and-fill scenario
7 Although E85 is not a corrosive material, ethanol has been known to damage certain rubber, seals, and internal engine components. Most vehicles produced prior to 1987 are not compatible with the chemical composition of E85, and some retrofitting of fuel lines, pumps, and vacuum hose may be needed, depending on vehicle.
Converting a vehicle to run E85 could be done in a day's time, by simply draining fuel, changing injectors and tuning. Bigger injectors, a good fuel pump, and E85 are nearly all that is needed. Everything else can be done in the ECU. Shawn Church, owner of Church Automotive and tuner of our E85-powered EVO VIII test vehicle, prefers to tune E85 with a good standalone engine management system, like the AEM EMS. "I'd say that if you have a regular source for E85 available, it's a hell of a good deal; cheaper than gas-especially race gas-and excellent performance. And the owner of this EVO VIII is averaging 16-17 mpg in the city on E85, so the drop-off in economy isn't that noticeable."
With all of that being said.... Has anybody done this yet to the S.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,692
Likes: 3
From: Pasadena, SOCAL
well, before you jump the gun
check to see if the rubber gasket and seal in your fuel system is up to the challenge, i think e85 "GM's flexfuel" system use copper seals and gasket instead of our rubbers.
go search on google under "e85 " and "rubber fuel system seal"
check to see if the rubber gasket and seal in your fuel system is up to the challenge, i think e85 "GM's flexfuel" system use copper seals and gasket instead of our rubbers.
go search on google under "e85 " and "rubber fuel system seal"
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 536
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they are starting to use 10% ethanol in most gases, i wouldnt use it if you can avoid it.
I know that Lexus has a recall out right now on some newer models, like the IS, GS, and LS, to change fuel rails b/c they are proving ethanol is corroding them and causing problems. Which they have never had an issue with them in the past, when gas was, well, gas.
If i can avoid it, i will never use ethanol, unless the engine was made for ONLY ethanol, i do NOT trust either or.
I know that Lexus has a recall out right now on some newer models, like the IS, GS, and LS, to change fuel rails b/c they are proving ethanol is corroding them and causing problems. Which they have never had an issue with them in the past, when gas was, well, gas.
If i can avoid it, i will never use ethanol, unless the engine was made for ONLY ethanol, i do NOT trust either or.
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Joined: May 2006
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From: Braselton, GA
Read a little more in the FI section on e85. Run an EMS and tune it properly and you are good to go. FI guys need larger injectors and obviously larger pump as it requires more e85 then petrol. e85 also has a much higher octane rating so it is much better as far as detonation goes.