F22 swap in AP1 - Suggestions Needed
02-25-2018, 01:32 AM
#11
Sorry to hear that man! Ever found out why it was burning oil? One place I know oil gets lost is through the upper cog axle bolt's common leak after time. Then on cars that get tracked a lot its through the PCV on hard right turns. Also heard Mobil 1 burns off on AP1's for some reason
02-25-2018, 01:39 AM
#12
first of all i love your youtube channel
1 I personally have swapped an 04-05 f22c into my brothers 2001 s2000 and we ran the car with the oem 2001 ap1 ecu. yes the rev limit will still be 9k and no i do not recommend revving it to 9k. With my brothers car we just always shift at about 8k. Motor seem to run fine but once every few months it would throw a lean code. I would recommend just ruining the ap2 ecu or getting a stand alone and getting a custom tune.
2 the s2000 have what they call immobilizer in the keys and the ecu. Your ap1 ecu will only start your engine because it senses the chip in your keys. Your 05 ecu is set to only start the engine when it senses the keys of its original car. if you want to run the ap2 or any stock ecu that is not the origional ecu that came in your car you must take the immobilizer out of the ap2 ecu but by doing this you your car will be easier to steal. Or you can have the ap2 ecu set to your keys which i believe can be done at any honda dealer.
3. The ap2 engine is a faster and more powerful engine so it will be fine with the ap1 transmission. but with 8k shifts and the factory 6k vtec crossover you will not stay in vtec. getting a standalone and a custom tune will solve this issue.
You need to boost your car. I'm tired of watching you get smoked on the track by all the porches/vetts/vipers/mclarens/and everything else
1 I personally have swapped an 04-05 f22c into my brothers 2001 s2000 and we ran the car with the oem 2001 ap1 ecu. yes the rev limit will still be 9k and no i do not recommend revving it to 9k. With my brothers car we just always shift at about 8k. Motor seem to run fine but once every few months it would throw a lean code. I would recommend just ruining the ap2 ecu or getting a stand alone and getting a custom tune.
2 the s2000 have what they call immobilizer in the keys and the ecu. Your ap1 ecu will only start your engine because it senses the chip in your keys. Your 05 ecu is set to only start the engine when it senses the keys of its original car. if you want to run the ap2 or any stock ecu that is not the origional ecu that came in your car you must take the immobilizer out of the ap2 ecu but by doing this you your car will be easier to steal. Or you can have the ap2 ecu set to your keys which i believe can be done at any honda dealer.
3. The ap2 engine is a faster and more powerful engine so it will be fine with the ap1 transmission. but with 8k shifts and the factory 6k vtec crossover you will not stay in vtec. getting a standalone and a custom tune will solve this issue.
You need to boost your car. I'm tired of watching you get smoked on the track by all the porches/vetts/vipers/mclarens/and everything else
F22 makes marginally more torque yes, but the power stayed the same.And yeah I think he needs to boost it as well just to show those overpriced larger engine cars who's boss. Supercharged preferably so he can maintain that iconic screaming NA character we know and love
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Zygrene (02-26-2018)
02-25-2018, 01:23 PM
#13
Sorry to hear that man! Ever found out why it was burning oil? One place I know oil gets lost is through the upper cog axle bolt's common leak after time. Then on cars that get tracked a lot its through the PCV on hard right turns. Also heard Mobil 1 burns off on AP1's for some reason
Upper cog Allen bolt in head? Car was burning oil ever since my ownership. 10 years. So maybe at some point it got too low. Either it's the rings or the valve stem seals. The hard right handers, would lose power and start breaking up, then started in 3rd on the straight. Possibly detonation first that started the whole process? I don't know.
I was somewhat hesitant to lose the 9k redline, especially since I will be keeping my ap1 trans, but after reading some posts about others that have done the swap, the f22/ap1 tranny combo seems to be liked by many. Have an 11lb FW that should help some as well as standalone ecu, should be able to rev it to 8500rpm. Time will tell, maybe just splitting hairs at this point.
Last edited by starchland; 02-25-2018 at 01:28 PM.
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Zygrene (02-26-2018)
02-25-2018, 09:27 PM
#14
3. "faster and more powerful"? You know that's not true F22 makes marginally more torque yes, but the power stayed the same.
And yeah I think he needs to boost it as well just to show those overpriced larger engine cars who's boss. Supercharged preferably so he can maintain that iconic screaming NA character we know and love
F22 makes marginally more torque yes, but the power stayed the same.And yeah I think he needs to boost it as well just to show those overpriced larger engine cars who's boss. Supercharged preferably so he can maintain that iconic screaming NA character we know and love
02-25-2018, 10:02 PM
#15
Agree with riceball on the F22 being more powerful then the F20 out of the box but more so in response to bolt ons. Its a bigger displacement engine which means more overall yield in breathing mod benefit, and has a few additional refinements, its just a better motor all the way around. Ive run a F22 with an ap1 ecu for a lot of years and in NA form used a adjustable fpr for more fuel and a vafc neo to tune the fuel curve and lower vtec to 3600-3700 rpms, works great and its simple/reliable. I always enjoyed this combo with an 8lb flywheel, really wakes the f22 up. That motor really likes to rev! Its pretty evident the power drops off pretty quick after 8400 rpm, so its not hard to gauge the shift point, but when I was supercharged i really had to pay attention because it would just keep pulling to 9k and bounce off the limiter, which i did fairly frequently. the motor will take it, but I think overtime it will start to ovalize the piston bores and scuff the pistons eventually due to the flexing stresses at spinning that fast, but its a slow process kind of thing, the rods are strong, not going to throw one from keeping into the 8600-9k once in a wile in my experience. In fact there is one turn in particular at my road course that is quickest if I stay in 3rd to about 8700-8800rpm rather then shift to 4th so i just let rev.
The ap1 trans is a good combo with the higher output motor, however there may be some misinformation about its gear ratio vs top end speed. The ap2 trans has a shorter ratio the first 4 gears due to the primary gear reduction, but then actually has taller 5th and 6th gear. So the ap2 trans actually would provide a higher top speed. The ap1 trans has a more even spread between each gear, which i think is more favorable for a race car, as long as you dont need to go faster then 160ish mph.
The ap1 trans is a good combo with the higher output motor, however there may be some misinformation about its gear ratio vs top end speed. The ap2 trans has a shorter ratio the first 4 gears due to the primary gear reduction, but then actually has taller 5th and 6th gear. So the ap2 trans actually would provide a higher top speed. The ap1 trans has a more even spread between each gear, which i think is more favorable for a race car, as long as you dont need to go faster then 160ish mph.
Last edited by s2000Junky; 02-25-2018 at 10:13 PM.
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Zygrene (02-26-2018)
02-25-2018, 10:40 PM
#16
I’m running a stock block f20c and I know from many of my own experiences that a f22c does in face make significantly more power than an f20 even though they are both rated at 240hp. Manufacture power ratings are not always accurate. Most f22c either stock of with a few basic boots on consistently Dyno 10-25 hp more on average than a f20. My stock f20c with my current turbo kit dynoed at 425whp on 91 octane. My brothers f22c with the same exact turbo kit on the same dyno makes 470whp on the same fuel. With all things being equal the bigger engine will not only make more tq but it will make more hp as well.
WRT mods like turbos the larger displacement will help it spool faster making more power in the end.
02-25-2018, 10:45 PM
#17
Agree with riceball on the F22 being more powerful then the F20 out of the box but more so in response to bolt ons. Its a bigger displacement engine which means more overall yield in breathing mod benefit, and has a few additional refinements, its just a better motor all the way around. Ive run a F22 with an ap1 ecu for a lot of years and in NA form used a adjustable fpr for more fuel and a vafc neo to tune the fuel curve and lower vtec to 3600-3700 rpms, works great and its simple/reliable. I always enjoyed this combo with an 8lb flywheel, really wakes the f22 up. That motor really likes to rev! Its pretty evident the power drops off pretty quick after 8400 rpm, so its not hard to gauge the shift point, but when I was supercharged i really had to pay attention because it would just keep pulling to 9k and bounce off the limiter, which i did fairly frequently. the motor will take it, but I think overtime it will start to ovalize the piston bores and scuff the pistons eventually due to the flexing stresses at spinning that fast, but its a slow process kind of thing, the rods are strong, not going to throw one from keeping into the 8600-9k once in a wile in my experience. In fact there is one turn in particular at my road course that is quickest if I stay in 3rd to about 8700-8800rpm rather then shift to 4th so i just let rev.
The ap1 trans is a good combo with the higher output motor, however there may be some misinformation about its gear ratio vs top end speed. The ap2 trans has a shorter ratio the first 4 gears due to the primary gear reduction, but then actually has taller 5th and 6th gear. So the ap2 trans actually would provide a higher top speed. The ap1 trans has a more even spread between each gear, which i think is more favorable for a race car, as long as you dont need to go faster then 160ish mph.
The ap1 trans is a good combo with the higher output motor, however there may be some misinformation about its gear ratio vs top end speed. The ap2 trans has a shorter ratio the first 4 gears due to the primary gear reduction, but then actually has taller 5th and 6th gear. So the ap2 trans actually would provide a higher top speed. The ap1 trans has a more even spread between each gear, which i think is more favorable for a race car, as long as you dont need to go faster then 160ish mph.
That being said, I would LOVE to have a CR! I do love all S2000's after all
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Zygrene (02-26-2018)
02-26-2018, 08:53 AM
#18
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Zygrene (02-26-2018)
02-26-2018, 10:09 PM
#19
Thanks for all the replies! I think I will leave the AP1 ECU after the swap and see how it feels. I'll have the AP2 ECU and immobilizer to swap in later if I want the security and lower redline. In the future I may run a standalone if I'm not happy with the F22 + AP1 gearing combo.
Will be interesting to see how my lap times compare after the swap. I'm also biting the bullet on a wing... will be installed before the next track day
Will be interesting to see how my lap times compare after the swap. I'm also biting the bullet on a wing... will be installed before the next track day
02-26-2018, 10:14 PM
#20
The F20 is fun, its just not as effective overall. Ive used them both in this car and at different stages of performance build. Just depends on what gets you off more and what your performance goals are. An F22 with a light weight flywheel and 8500 rpm is pretty hard to beat. To each their own
I want a blue CR. Then I can have the last of her kind alongside the first of her kind ('00 GPW/red AP1)
