Maybe see if the car wants some scotch?

 

you know I didnt even ask it… this could by my issue. I suppose it will demand the good stuff too… not the share with everyone stuff

 

Fuel injectors sticking with your Minnesota Ethanol fuel?

This sounds what happened to me at almost the 20th anniversary mark in March, car is fine going up north half way up a mountain doing 105 mph and the check engine light starts flashing. Get it on flat bed 100 miles back home, car is shaking so bad I'm fearing the worst for the engine. CEL was #3 misfire, then all showing misfire, then general and then #3 again. 6 years ago I was having misfires and went through these similar steps:

1. Valve lash adjustment and recheck good
2. Compression x2 good
3. Leak down good
4. Spark plugs good, but replaced with new Honda Red Box (the only way to go imo as they are pre-gapped better then any after market)
5. Coil packs good, but replaced with new Denso Amazon, then new from Honda (because I can) and no difference
6. Noticed VTEC solenoid has oil gushing out of switch into connectors all down wiring impossible to clean out oil, figure this has to be it, after taking apart that section of wire harness re-splice create new terminals (cycleterminal.com has genuine OEM connectors from Japan). Not the issue, but now have new VTEC solenoid and super clean section of wire harness (use Scotch Super 33+ High Temp electrical tape so adhesive doesn't melt like regular electrical tape does)
7. Check all electrical connections
7.5 Opted NOT to test the fuel pressure as 6 years ago, I actually have the Honda Fuel Pressure Gauge and adapter, but felt this was not fuel pressure
8. Decide to look at injectors that are new OEM and 6 years old. SLUDGE all around them, like thick syrup sludge, and must be from Arizona 10% Ethanol and in some cases 15% Ethanol fuel (no choice anymore what we can get.)
9. New OEM injectors and engine goes PURRRRRRR

I'm probably missing a few steps as there were a few beer fueled nights of sadness at the thought of losing her.

I cannot believe it was again the injectors due to I believe crap fuel but here we are. I'm going to send the old ones in to Hurst for cleaning. I don't think our cars like Corn Syrup for fuel and are sensitive to that.

I hope it's your coil packs, much cheaper.

 

I have not lived in MN for a few years now and mine has run 93 octane for years since it was tuned in 2016. And in lots of places 93 is non ethanol so I try to buy it at those places whenever I can. I have not had time this week to work on it but next step, given I saw no spark on some coils is to get that fixed of course first but will be retesting wiring to them before I install them just for peace of mine. But found no wiring related issues previously. If it runs fine with the coils replaced, I will be then plugging the emanage back in to test again. I removed it from the system up front to make sure it had not lost its mind but of course, no change.

If coils do not resolve it then I will need to check again if they are actually getting a good signal to fire, but it appears they were. That would have me scratching my head seeing as some were indeed not working at all. But that would start making me worry about the ECU. ECU failures are pretty rare in most cars (only a few in over 30 years at my dads shop even) but it can happen.

Fuel pressure test will come after that too of course if it is still acting up. Hope to do down to the shop and work on it this evening if time permits.

I did not buy the coils from Amazon. They had the same questionable labeling as some have gotten elsewhere that does not look like factory Denso labeling. 04/05 coils are half the price of the 00-03 and work in an AP1. So that is what I went with.

 

Bad coilpacks appears to have been it. Just got back from the test drive

 

So now I get into the geek in me and theory of why this made me scratch my head so much. And here we go (in my most Hydraulic Press Channel voice)

One coil pack at least finally got bad enough to start triggering misfires. Possibly two given what I saw when testing but one only showed up very randomly at first.

When you apply voltage to the primary side of a coil, it builds a field. When you remove that voltage, that field collapses and creates a higher voltage than initially applied. This of course induces current in the secondary which has many more windings and thus, creates a much higher voltage (20 kV, 30kV or higher). It requires much less than this voltage to jump the gap of a spark plug, but you need a strong spark to keep solid ignition and combustion. The voltage will rise quickly to the point where there is enough potential energy to jump the spark plug gap. If the gap is smaller, it will require less potential to jump said gap, if the gap is larger the voltage can rise higher before the spark is formed. Once the spark is formed, the energy in the secondary is dissipated and we start the cycle over again on the next cycle. Sorry, this may be mundane for some and I am an electrical nerd but this may be helpful to some so am sharing.

When they start aging and breaking down, the insulation inside the coils can fail between windings, effectively reducing the number of windings and reducing output voltage as time goes by. They can also fail other ways but this is one way they fail. Others can be than an open circuit forms from vibration, heat, etc.

When using a spark tester, you are making the coil jump a much larger gap than a spark plug to test that the coil is indeed healthy. This means a higher secondary voltage can form before the discharge occurs.

When I saw the obviously dead coil and the others behaving as if they were only firing inconsistently, I performed the spark test. Very likely that the increases stress on the already failing coils from the higher secondary voltage blew holes through the remaining insulation on the windings (or finished opening a poor connection inside the coil) and basically finished off those weak coils. So then they went from very randomly misfiring to being completely dead, which is why the issue got worse as I tested and made it seem like multiples failed at once. I mean, multiples DID fail at once, but they had just not finished failing completely It always make you think twice when a set of parts fails at the exact same time as the probability seems low. But, these were all the same age (original to the car as far as I know) and thus it makes sense they were all aging out. I just helped it along when I started testing. When I was seeing the others barely spark and not consistent at 10kV on the tester and then stop completely, I was watching their final demise right before my eyes.

I do recommend testing the wiring if you think multiple coils fail at once though to be sure before you shell out money on new ones. There is constant batt + to one pin, and ground to another. Those are easy and you sholud test not just by reading voltage, but do a resistance check (battery disconnected !) to make sure there are no bad connections. A bad connection may show full voltage with a meter (high impedance load) but will show low voltage when under load. So performing a resistance check will show if there is a poor connection. You can test the connection back to the 12V source, ECU pin, etc using a long wire and your meter to extend the leads. The third signal will be the signal from the ECU to trigger the coil, which is a 5V pulse per the shop manual wiring diagram. This will be hard to see with a meter (an o-scope would do it if set up properly) since it is a pulsing signal. But, you can perform a resistance check back to the ECU to make sure the wiring is healthy and a rodent did not do you wrong. I was able to test to see the pulse on mine so at least knew the ECU was trying to fire them. But still followed up with testing the wiring.



Anyway, long winded I know, but hey outside of being a gearhead, I am a nerd so it is what it is

 

Lucky on the option to buy real fuel, there's only a handful of those left in Arizona and they are a couple hours away. I agree on the coil packs from Amazon but for a slightly different reason, I purchased a set and although they did look exactly like the OEM ones (I was looking at the markings with a magnifying glass) I ended up purchasing ones from the dealership, the only difference was the packaging (Denso box vs Honda bubble wrapped with label). I decided to stick with Honda OEM ones as I suspect Honda has more stringent tolerance requirements for all parts coming from vendors vs what those vendors sell to general public. An example of this are spark plugs, the Honda Red Box ones are pre-gapped to a specific tolerance vs. the NGK ones you can buy online that aren't. Mixing and matching non OEM parts with small varying degrees of tolerances over time (in my very humble opinion) impacts overall performance on cars like our that thrive on precision. I remember seeing a video of Spoon in Japan weighing parts for engine builds so they are all in similar range. I grew up with automotive quality a constant discussion at the dinner table since the 80's when my father switched into that new field (when Honda was demolishing the competition with the their quality systems and the Accord took over the Taurus...) and in his later years was helping automotive companies get ISO certified and later the (at the time) prestigious Ford Q1 certification they demanded otherwise you could no longer be a supplier.) I had the pleasure of working for a year with him in one of these companies when I got out of the Corps and doubled as one of his QC inspectors on the 2nd shift at night. Meeting William Deming and receiving a Taguchi award are two of his most cherished memories (probably more than us being born lol).

I get this reference and can't stop associating your avatar and name with his voice now! Send in your old coil packs and see if he'll press them, but standing up.

...One of us! One of us! Thanks for the detailed write up, some of us appreciate it and I learned quite a bit about the coil packs.

 

If anyone wants to further nerd out, the father of Japanese quality that we all love is an American, William Edwards Deming:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Well worth the read.

 

MN had a decent number of places. Being near lakes helps as people tend to run higher octane and non ethanol in watercraft MO has plenty as well. Actually, we live just outside of a town of 1200 people... about 10 miles to the next larger town, but they build a brand new Caseys here that sells 93 and has non oxy as well so I can fuel up the S2k and get fuel for the chainsaw, mower, etc nearby

Great idea on the press channel.. I should contact him! I have not seen as much stuff from him lately. Sucks him and his wife split too, I got so used to her being on there! But would be cool to get him to crush an ignition coil for me. I am going to email them lol. And here ve go!!!!