HELP! Need advice from people with engine failures or experienced mechanics.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
From: Costa Mesa
I don't even understand how you can over rev the engine?!? During normal driving you hit the rev limiter if you don't shift in time. If you mis-shift and don't get in gear or mis-shift into a lower gear when you meant to go into a higher gear, your natural reaction time is pretty instantaneous, maybe a couple of tenths of a second? It has been my experience when I have gone into the wrong gear that my foot doesn't even get off of the clutch pedal. (My body lurching forward from engine braking triggers my left foot to stomp down on the clutch :0 )
And even if you do screw up a shift, is that abuse??
And even if you do screw up a shift, is that abuse??
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,343
Likes: 0
From: Brisbane
It's sorta discouraging that you even have to FIGHT this thing in the first place. Adversarial. Lots of folks just cave in, I'd bet.
This has fvcked me up more than you would believe.
I'm launching a law suit against HA and fully intend on burying their stupid asses.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: London
Speaking as someone about to buy an S2k, having spent several hours reading all the various threads on this topic, I have come to a few conclusions and some questions. Without wishing to go over already covered ground, nor attack or disagree with anyone here personally, here is what I think. Please feel free to correct if any of this is incorrect.
Complete summary of conclusions and opinions so far:
1. There was a specific design flaw in the S2000 engine.
2. It was an inadequate lubrication system.
3. It was serious because:
a. It occurred at around 100mph in a car designed to hit 150
b. It caused severe engine damage and often catastrophic engine failure at just a few hundred or thousand miles.
c. Even in engines that do not fail, or that have the recommended fix applied, the bores may still be damaged, and, expect premature engine failure in later life.
4. Honda designed preventative maintenance in the form of new Banjo Bolts, but only footed the bill for European customers. (Honda deliberately left US customers in the dark about this unless the engines fail, in that case dealers have often been reluctant to accept responsibility, even stooping to dishonesty.)
5. Honda admits that a lubrication design-fault problem exists by that action.
6. It is not reasonable to suppose that most US s2000 owners visit this board or have seen these threads. We can only assume the worst on the failure rate. Honda's silence leaves no other reasonable conclusion. We can assume that the failure rate is high, say 1 in 300 cars or a similarly shocking figure just within the first year.
7. An alarming number of people on this board have experienced sudden engine failure (say, 20 people with total engine failure on new cars). The newness of these engines and serverity of failure, spells nothing but trouble for these cars engines in later life. If the lubrication system isn't good enough to THOROUGHLY protect the engine when new, time can only make things worse.
8. Honda engines are produced to high tolerances, therefore it is likely that all engines are equally at risk of failure. This is evidenced by the repeated identical or nearly-identical cylinder-4 failures. This is purely a 'design problem' - it is part of the design.
9. Honda is very cagey about this whole issue. It has something to hide.
Questions:
Has anyone taken an endoscope to an S2000 which has covered say 20,000 of hard fast driving, which has NOT had the bolts fixed, and seen normal wear & tear on the bores?
If we repeated this test on ten or twenty s2000s with the OLD banjo bolts, will we see a steady flow of clean bores, suggesting the problem is really isolated to just a handful of "unlucky" cars? Or will we see varying states of un-natural bore wear?
Considering the acute and fatal nature of the problem with new engines seizing up at 600 - 6000 miles (rough figures) let us ponder the hypothetical situation that one of those cars that failed at say 6000 miles, had instead been recalled at 3000 miles and had the uprated Banjo bolts fitted, then gone back on the road with no problems apparent. That car would still have earned itself likely half the bore wear necessary for a complete engine failure, but would still be running with 3000 miles on the clock in apparently 'nearly new' condition.
Preliminary overall opinions:
We still have no official confirmation from Honda as to the whole data and circumstances of the failure.
At least one or two visitors to these boards seem interested in seeing this problem swept away in a cloud of 'nothing has been proved so there is nothing to worry about'. I think there is something to worry about, if you haven't gathered that already
If a dealer is side-stepping an $8m recall program and it is being discussed here at length on the largest Internet forum dedicated to this particular model, is it not reasonable to suppose they have an interest here?
Buying a pre-02 S2k is risking buying a clapped-out engine due to design fault. A bore examination is a minimal step to ensure we are not buying a damaged block.
And no this is not paranoia, it is a simple set of engineering conclusions based on what verifyable facts have already been collated.
And, just to put my 02 to the arguments of different driving styles in Europe and the US: We all have good fast roads and can drive fast when conditions permit. Crusing home on an empty motorway at 120mph is common. I believe that Honda has made a purely financial decision not to bother with the US markets since overall cars move slower and therefore statistically, the failure rate and warranty work does not justify the recall costs. But in Europe, the recalls are hurting so badly that they are prepared to stump up the $350 or whatever for the recall. We know from Honda's neglect of the US market in this instance that Honda will only pay out on recall when it believes that the warranty bills are going to hurt it more. Considering the recall costs only maybe %10 of the cost of renewing a failed block, are we to suppose that Honda expects 1 in 10 cars to fail within 3 years?
Complete summary of conclusions and opinions so far:
1. There was a specific design flaw in the S2000 engine.
2. It was an inadequate lubrication system.
3. It was serious because:
a. It occurred at around 100mph in a car designed to hit 150
b. It caused severe engine damage and often catastrophic engine failure at just a few hundred or thousand miles.
c. Even in engines that do not fail, or that have the recommended fix applied, the bores may still be damaged, and, expect premature engine failure in later life.
4. Honda designed preventative maintenance in the form of new Banjo Bolts, but only footed the bill for European customers. (Honda deliberately left US customers in the dark about this unless the engines fail, in that case dealers have often been reluctant to accept responsibility, even stooping to dishonesty.)
5. Honda admits that a lubrication design-fault problem exists by that action.
6. It is not reasonable to suppose that most US s2000 owners visit this board or have seen these threads. We can only assume the worst on the failure rate. Honda's silence leaves no other reasonable conclusion. We can assume that the failure rate is high, say 1 in 300 cars or a similarly shocking figure just within the first year.
7. An alarming number of people on this board have experienced sudden engine failure (say, 20 people with total engine failure on new cars). The newness of these engines and serverity of failure, spells nothing but trouble for these cars engines in later life. If the lubrication system isn't good enough to THOROUGHLY protect the engine when new, time can only make things worse.
8. Honda engines are produced to high tolerances, therefore it is likely that all engines are equally at risk of failure. This is evidenced by the repeated identical or nearly-identical cylinder-4 failures. This is purely a 'design problem' - it is part of the design.
9. Honda is very cagey about this whole issue. It has something to hide.
Questions:
Has anyone taken an endoscope to an S2000 which has covered say 20,000 of hard fast driving, which has NOT had the bolts fixed, and seen normal wear & tear on the bores?
If we repeated this test on ten or twenty s2000s with the OLD banjo bolts, will we see a steady flow of clean bores, suggesting the problem is really isolated to just a handful of "unlucky" cars? Or will we see varying states of un-natural bore wear?
Considering the acute and fatal nature of the problem with new engines seizing up at 600 - 6000 miles (rough figures) let us ponder the hypothetical situation that one of those cars that failed at say 6000 miles, had instead been recalled at 3000 miles and had the uprated Banjo bolts fitted, then gone back on the road with no problems apparent. That car would still have earned itself likely half the bore wear necessary for a complete engine failure, but would still be running with 3000 miles on the clock in apparently 'nearly new' condition.
Preliminary overall opinions:
We still have no official confirmation from Honda as to the whole data and circumstances of the failure.
At least one or two visitors to these boards seem interested in seeing this problem swept away in a cloud of 'nothing has been proved so there is nothing to worry about'. I think there is something to worry about, if you haven't gathered that already
If a dealer is side-stepping an $8m recall program and it is being discussed here at length on the largest Internet forum dedicated to this particular model, is it not reasonable to suppose they have an interest here?Buying a pre-02 S2k is risking buying a clapped-out engine due to design fault. A bore examination is a minimal step to ensure we are not buying a damaged block.
And no this is not paranoia, it is a simple set of engineering conclusions based on what verifyable facts have already been collated.
And, just to put my 02 to the arguments of different driving styles in Europe and the US: We all have good fast roads and can drive fast when conditions permit. Crusing home on an empty motorway at 120mph is common. I believe that Honda has made a purely financial decision not to bother with the US markets since overall cars move slower and therefore statistically, the failure rate and warranty work does not justify the recall costs. But in Europe, the recalls are hurting so badly that they are prepared to stump up the $350 or whatever for the recall. We know from Honda's neglect of the US market in this instance that Honda will only pay out on recall when it believes that the warranty bills are going to hurt it more. Considering the recall costs only maybe %10 of the cost of renewing a failed block, are we to suppose that Honda expects 1 in 10 cars to fail within 3 years?
Moderator
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 22,389
Likes: 1,842
From: Long Island, New York
Man this is the saddest shit i have ever seen. Dhess i really feel for you and all the others. i"ll post this again just to be clear: if you have engine troubles, even if it blows up, be sure to bring the oil up to the full mark before the dealer sees it. this is a bulls!@# way of getting out of warrantee claims on an engine that definitely, in my opinion, has a major design flaw. I have a deposit on an 03, and before i lay down 35 grand of hard earned money on a car that i'm loosing alot of faith in, i'm going to get whatever info i can on this issue from the dealer. I know it's a big cover up, but i know the guys and hopefully i can assist some of u guys.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
From: Estes Park
In any number of new engines this is bound to happen, just from the odds. Bet if you looked at Accords there are more of these occuring with them, but beacause it is not an "image" car, they just quietly fix it. And if you think this car is a bargain, look at what they take out from a Civic Si to get to to an S2000, and I think they have a lot of blue sky here. That blue sky covers warranty claims. Keep after them. And maybe instead of an endoscope, you should use a proctoscope on them!
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,805
Likes: 0
From: Columbus, OH
Originally posted by david1
Ti336e, when mention pre 02, can I assume that my 02 has the new bolts?
Ti336e, when mention pre 02, can I assume that my 02 has the new bolts?