Misfire Issues; need Billman!
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Misfire Issues; need Billman!
2000 S2000, 161k, third owner. Relatively stock. Only motor mod is a 70mm Invidia test pipe with anti-fouler fix. No CEL codes for that.
As of today, I have codes:
P0300 - Random Multiple Misfire
P0301 - Misfire Cylinder 1
P0302 - Misfire Cylinder 2
P0303 - Misfire Cylinder 3
P0304 - Misfire Cylinder 4
P1399 - Related to Random Misfire (checked on Honda-Tech and a member mentioned this: "p1399 is a random misfire code and honda has reported for various models that this could be caused by clogged egr ports, in addition there is the possibility that the valve clearance spec may be out of range"
Interesting.
So the story goes..
I bought the car from the previous owner who told me pretty much as I drove the car off "hey, if the CEL comes on, it's for the o2 sensor!" At first, I thought nothing of it. CEL comes on a few months down the road and goes back off. Comes on and goes off. No big deal, car runs fine. I check the codes and it's the downstream o2 sensor, so all that does is tell you if your cat is working or not. ECU uses the upstream o2 sensor. Well, I drive the car a few more months and the valves get rather "tick-ey" so I go get a valve adjustment. Asked a buddy of mine if he had any idea where I should take it. He suggested an old friend of his who had done valve adjustments on S2000's before.
Big mistake #1 with this car..
I went to the place, guy did the adjustment. ***see SIDE NOTE at the bottom*** "Tick-ey" sound hadn't really gone away, but I figured I'd drive it first before I decided anything. Drove it away, and as I was merging onto the interstate, something was wrong. The car had lost a lot of power. Took it back, guy kinda poked around a bit; didn't seem like he wanted to do anything. I mentioned the car idling VERY poorly and the misfiring being bad enough that it was shaking the whole car. He got an OBD scan-tool and as he sat on the passenger door sill, he mentioned he could feel the car misfiring. Checked the codes, they're crappy. He gets a laser thermometer and checks the exhaust runners. #1, #3 and #4 are running about 250-260*F and #2 is running about 30 degrees colder at 220*F. We think it's number 2, even though codes say multiple misfire. Guy is busy and doesn't seem to much want to help beyond what he has already done. So much for the bro hook-up. I left and never talked to them again. Big mistake #2.
***SIDE NOTE***
When the guy moved from cylinder 1 to cylinder 2, or from cylinder 2 to cylinder 3 (I can't remember now), he was turning the crank pulley to get the motor to TDC for the next cylinder when he (I thought) bumped a valve. He checked his feeler gauges and then mentioned that he had the wrong clearance and went back to cylinder 1 to start over. Could this have bent the valve on cylinder number 2? I think he went with too large of a clearance. Can't that have made the valve drop too low in the cylinder and it could have been struck?
Also, he mentioned that some valves were tighter and some were looser. Is this normal?
Drove the car like this for a few months now. Checked a few random things out. Swapped coilpacks with a buddy's S and that didn't change anything. Got new plugs, ran tons of fuel injector cleaner through the tank, got a million different brands of gas from different stations, ran the car hard, drove like a grandma, etc, etc, and nothing has done much at all to the car's behavior. I think if it's been anything at all, that it's just a placebo effect cause I just spent money on something.
Finally did a compression test today, and it was dismal at best.
That being said, I didn't follow the "proper" procedures for the test, but hear me out before you cast judgment.
The car wasn't warm, but it wasn't cold, either. It had been driven on interstate about 45 minutes to an hour before, and had run a few minutes while shuffling cars around to get into garage. I didn't floor the gas pedal and I didn't pull the fuel pump fuse, either. DID pull all spark plugs, and DID go through 5 compression cycles on each cylinder to ensure accurate results from cylinder to cylinder. Also did the exact same test (minus the fuel pump fuse, which we remembered to pull!) on my buddy's '00 with 125k; his car was not warmed up, and didn't floor the gas pedal. I honestly don't think that that made a huge difference, though. It may have changed our numbers in comparison to another vehicles, but not in comparison to each others'.
My car's compression numbers..
Cylinder 1: First test - 75 Second test - 75
Cylinder 2: First test - 180 Second test - 190
Cylinder 3: First test - 120 Second test - 125
Cylinder 4: First test - 210 Second test - 215
Wow. I was literally speechless. Those numbers SUCK. What are my buddy's numbers, we wonder?
His car's compression numbers..
Cylinder 1: First test - 250 Second test - 255
Cylinder 2: First test - 245 Second test - 248
Cylinder 3: First test - 250 Second test - 252
Cylinder 4: First test - 260 Second test - 260
Again, our testing methods may not have been accurate to compare with others' tests, but his car clearly has things in order, and mine isn't healthy at all.
I had a passing thought about the fuel pump fuse on mine maybe having caused fuel to be sprayed into the cylinders and maybe it altered the compression numbers? If there's a chance that changed it, then I will re-do the test. That's the only thing I can think of. In any case, my numbers are widely varied. I am trying to get up with another friend and see about doing a leak-down test.
We pulled the valve cover and checked the retainers with a mirror and found that most looked kinda "down" except for ONE intake side retained on cylinder 4. It looked PERFECT. The other intake retainers looked a bit low, and even some of the exhaust ones did, too, even though the exhaust retainers will not break before a valve will be struck.
Still daily driving the car, here are the symptoms..
Reduced power pretty much at all times. Sometimes the car feels MUCH stronger, and other times, it feels as though the ECU is pulling timing enough that it's barely making enough power to limp around. Like it will blast through VTEC sometimes, and other times it will hardly rev to 4k. My buddy with the S said that my car "feels like my car with the A/C on. Like it's down on power about 10%" Ample description enough, but I drive it much more often than he does, and I'm sure it's more than 10% at times.
CEL is on all the time. Flashing CEL started a few months ago. It would come on every great once in a while while I was stopped and idling for an extended period of time. Especially with the A/C on. Lately, flashing CEL is a much more common occurrence. It will come on at stoplights and will continue flashing until I limp away from the light. Even if I rev the car to about 3k and slip the clutch A LOT the car will still just DROP in power, and will barely limp ahead. If I see the flashing CEL, sometimes I will keep the revs up to about 1500-2000 and the flashing CEL will go away. Obviously an idle issue.
I've thought about this whole thing a lot over the past few months and I have a few ideas. Please feel free to chime in and tell me what you think.
1) My car's motor mounts are old and shot. Maybe the motor shakes enough at idle that the knock sensor picks up on that and "sees" a misfire and pulls timing as a result. (This has since been negated, in my opinion, now that I've checked the compression and seen such dismal results).
2) I have a bad coilpack. (This has since been negated, in my opinion, because I swapped with known-good coilpacks from my buddy's S2000 and the car ran no differently).
3) I have a bad injector. This is still possible. I have the aforementioned "tick-ey" noise, and perhaps that could be a sticking injector or something of the like.
4) I have bent valves. This would suck. I'm really leaning towards this one, as my compression is down, but the exhaust is not smoking a lot, so I think the rings are okay. I want to attribute my "tick-ey" noise to valves, but I'm not sure. It made this noise both BEFORE and AFTER my valve adjustment, so I'm no longer associating it with valves unless my incorrect valve adjustment just made things worse.
***SIDE NOTE***
My car has very recently been consuming more oil than before. It has pretty much directly coincided with the advent of the flashing CEL happening more regularly. I checked the oil after a longer-than-usual check interval, and was alarmed to see that the oil had dropped to the bottom of or right below the X's. I figured it would be down a bit more than the 4th X or so, but didn't think it would be that low. I put about 2/3 of a quart in it and it was back up to the second X. Checked it a week to a week and a half later and it's back down to where it was before. I added a full quart today and got it back up to the top of the X's. This never happened before, and it has always consumed oil regularly.
5) My "mini electric supercharger!" is not working. I'm not sure what it's called, but perhaps that little "keep-air-moving-through-the-motor-at-idle-so-it-won't-run-so-rich" fan has gone out and the motor can't compensate correctly and it's fouling plugs? (This has since been negated, in my opinion, because of the compression results).
6) Vacuum leak. Just an idea, not really sure if that would cause these problems.
I have more ideas, but I'm just wanting to reach out to my fellow S2000 owners and see what advice you guys can proffer.
That being said, I would like advice from those members who are very mechanically inclined and are familiar with the S2000 and it's nuances. Please don't clutter up the thread with "oh, those compression numbers SUCK!!" or "I think you have bent valves" I'm all for the help, but please include WHY you think what you think about the situation. I know that this is a lot of information to begin a thread with, but I wanted to get it all out there and try to help get this thing figured out!
Please discuss.
As of today, I have codes:
P0300 - Random Multiple Misfire
P0301 - Misfire Cylinder 1
P0302 - Misfire Cylinder 2
P0303 - Misfire Cylinder 3
P0304 - Misfire Cylinder 4
P1399 - Related to Random Misfire (checked on Honda-Tech and a member mentioned this: "p1399 is a random misfire code and honda has reported for various models that this could be caused by clogged egr ports, in addition there is the possibility that the valve clearance spec may be out of range"
Interesting.
So the story goes..
I bought the car from the previous owner who told me pretty much as I drove the car off "hey, if the CEL comes on, it's for the o2 sensor!" At first, I thought nothing of it. CEL comes on a few months down the road and goes back off. Comes on and goes off. No big deal, car runs fine. I check the codes and it's the downstream o2 sensor, so all that does is tell you if your cat is working or not. ECU uses the upstream o2 sensor. Well, I drive the car a few more months and the valves get rather "tick-ey" so I go get a valve adjustment. Asked a buddy of mine if he had any idea where I should take it. He suggested an old friend of his who had done valve adjustments on S2000's before.
Big mistake #1 with this car..
I went to the place, guy did the adjustment. ***see SIDE NOTE at the bottom*** "Tick-ey" sound hadn't really gone away, but I figured I'd drive it first before I decided anything. Drove it away, and as I was merging onto the interstate, something was wrong. The car had lost a lot of power. Took it back, guy kinda poked around a bit; didn't seem like he wanted to do anything. I mentioned the car idling VERY poorly and the misfiring being bad enough that it was shaking the whole car. He got an OBD scan-tool and as he sat on the passenger door sill, he mentioned he could feel the car misfiring. Checked the codes, they're crappy. He gets a laser thermometer and checks the exhaust runners. #1, #3 and #4 are running about 250-260*F and #2 is running about 30 degrees colder at 220*F. We think it's number 2, even though codes say multiple misfire. Guy is busy and doesn't seem to much want to help beyond what he has already done. So much for the bro hook-up. I left and never talked to them again. Big mistake #2.
***SIDE NOTE***
When the guy moved from cylinder 1 to cylinder 2, or from cylinder 2 to cylinder 3 (I can't remember now), he was turning the crank pulley to get the motor to TDC for the next cylinder when he (I thought) bumped a valve. He checked his feeler gauges and then mentioned that he had the wrong clearance and went back to cylinder 1 to start over. Could this have bent the valve on cylinder number 2? I think he went with too large of a clearance. Can't that have made the valve drop too low in the cylinder and it could have been struck?
Also, he mentioned that some valves were tighter and some were looser. Is this normal?
Drove the car like this for a few months now. Checked a few random things out. Swapped coilpacks with a buddy's S and that didn't change anything. Got new plugs, ran tons of fuel injector cleaner through the tank, got a million different brands of gas from different stations, ran the car hard, drove like a grandma, etc, etc, and nothing has done much at all to the car's behavior. I think if it's been anything at all, that it's just a placebo effect cause I just spent money on something.
Finally did a compression test today, and it was dismal at best.
That being said, I didn't follow the "proper" procedures for the test, but hear me out before you cast judgment.
The car wasn't warm, but it wasn't cold, either. It had been driven on interstate about 45 minutes to an hour before, and had run a few minutes while shuffling cars around to get into garage. I didn't floor the gas pedal and I didn't pull the fuel pump fuse, either. DID pull all spark plugs, and DID go through 5 compression cycles on each cylinder to ensure accurate results from cylinder to cylinder. Also did the exact same test (minus the fuel pump fuse, which we remembered to pull!) on my buddy's '00 with 125k; his car was not warmed up, and didn't floor the gas pedal. I honestly don't think that that made a huge difference, though. It may have changed our numbers in comparison to another vehicles, but not in comparison to each others'.
My car's compression numbers..
Cylinder 1: First test - 75 Second test - 75
Cylinder 2: First test - 180 Second test - 190
Cylinder 3: First test - 120 Second test - 125
Cylinder 4: First test - 210 Second test - 215
Wow. I was literally speechless. Those numbers SUCK. What are my buddy's numbers, we wonder?
His car's compression numbers..
Cylinder 1: First test - 250 Second test - 255
Cylinder 2: First test - 245 Second test - 248
Cylinder 3: First test - 250 Second test - 252
Cylinder 4: First test - 260 Second test - 260
Again, our testing methods may not have been accurate to compare with others' tests, but his car clearly has things in order, and mine isn't healthy at all.
I had a passing thought about the fuel pump fuse on mine maybe having caused fuel to be sprayed into the cylinders and maybe it altered the compression numbers? If there's a chance that changed it, then I will re-do the test. That's the only thing I can think of. In any case, my numbers are widely varied. I am trying to get up with another friend and see about doing a leak-down test.
We pulled the valve cover and checked the retainers with a mirror and found that most looked kinda "down" except for ONE intake side retained on cylinder 4. It looked PERFECT. The other intake retainers looked a bit low, and even some of the exhaust ones did, too, even though the exhaust retainers will not break before a valve will be struck.
Still daily driving the car, here are the symptoms..
Reduced power pretty much at all times. Sometimes the car feels MUCH stronger, and other times, it feels as though the ECU is pulling timing enough that it's barely making enough power to limp around. Like it will blast through VTEC sometimes, and other times it will hardly rev to 4k. My buddy with the S said that my car "feels like my car with the A/C on. Like it's down on power about 10%" Ample description enough, but I drive it much more often than he does, and I'm sure it's more than 10% at times.
CEL is on all the time. Flashing CEL started a few months ago. It would come on every great once in a while while I was stopped and idling for an extended period of time. Especially with the A/C on. Lately, flashing CEL is a much more common occurrence. It will come on at stoplights and will continue flashing until I limp away from the light. Even if I rev the car to about 3k and slip the clutch A LOT the car will still just DROP in power, and will barely limp ahead. If I see the flashing CEL, sometimes I will keep the revs up to about 1500-2000 and the flashing CEL will go away. Obviously an idle issue.
I've thought about this whole thing a lot over the past few months and I have a few ideas. Please feel free to chime in and tell me what you think.
1) My car's motor mounts are old and shot. Maybe the motor shakes enough at idle that the knock sensor picks up on that and "sees" a misfire and pulls timing as a result. (This has since been negated, in my opinion, now that I've checked the compression and seen such dismal results).
2) I have a bad coilpack. (This has since been negated, in my opinion, because I swapped with known-good coilpacks from my buddy's S2000 and the car ran no differently).
3) I have a bad injector. This is still possible. I have the aforementioned "tick-ey" noise, and perhaps that could be a sticking injector or something of the like.
4) I have bent valves. This would suck. I'm really leaning towards this one, as my compression is down, but the exhaust is not smoking a lot, so I think the rings are okay. I want to attribute my "tick-ey" noise to valves, but I'm not sure. It made this noise both BEFORE and AFTER my valve adjustment, so I'm no longer associating it with valves unless my incorrect valve adjustment just made things worse.
***SIDE NOTE***
My car has very recently been consuming more oil than before. It has pretty much directly coincided with the advent of the flashing CEL happening more regularly. I checked the oil after a longer-than-usual check interval, and was alarmed to see that the oil had dropped to the bottom of or right below the X's. I figured it would be down a bit more than the 4th X or so, but didn't think it would be that low. I put about 2/3 of a quart in it and it was back up to the second X. Checked it a week to a week and a half later and it's back down to where it was before. I added a full quart today and got it back up to the top of the X's. This never happened before, and it has always consumed oil regularly.
5) My "mini electric supercharger!" is not working. I'm not sure what it's called, but perhaps that little "keep-air-moving-through-the-motor-at-idle-so-it-won't-run-so-rich" fan has gone out and the motor can't compensate correctly and it's fouling plugs? (This has since been negated, in my opinion, because of the compression results).
6) Vacuum leak. Just an idea, not really sure if that would cause these problems.
I have more ideas, but I'm just wanting to reach out to my fellow S2000 owners and see what advice you guys can proffer.
That being said, I would like advice from those members who are very mechanically inclined and are familiar with the S2000 and it's nuances. Please don't clutter up the thread with "oh, those compression numbers SUCK!!" or "I think you have bent valves" I'm all for the help, but please include WHY you think what you think about the situation. I know that this is a lot of information to begin a thread with, but I wanted to get it all out there and try to help get this thing figured out!
Please discuss.
Thread Starter
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Oh, I forgot that the car runs fairly normal when it's in warm-up cycle, and that when the car is warm and is idling, you can hear faint "pops" coming out of the exhaust.
I pulled the intake box lid (and now run the car with it open!) and you can hear little "dud. dud-dud. dud. dud-dud-dud. dud-dud. dud." coming from the intake. Like the little pops, but they sound, idk how to explain it.. Tinnier? Drummier? I'm not sure. Just thought I'd add that. Maybe that's the noise a misfire makes?
I pulled the intake box lid (and now run the car with it open!) and you can hear little "dud. dud-dud. dud. dud-dud-dud. dud-dud. dud." coming from the intake. Like the little pops, but they sound, idk how to explain it.. Tinnier? Drummier? I'm not sure. Just thought I'd add that. Maybe that's the noise a misfire makes?
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From: Long Island, New York
Read your first few comments then stopped.
There was nothing wrong with your car aside from noise and a CEL for 02 sensor...fact.
It is very rare for untouched s2k valves to tick. I doubt your ticking was due to valves.
It appears the guy seriously botched the VA and burned the valves. Only takes a really TIGHT valve a minute to burn. Loose valves will only clatter.
There was nothing wrong with your car aside from noise and a CEL for 02 sensor...fact.
It is very rare for untouched s2k valves to tick. I doubt your ticking was due to valves.
It appears the guy seriously botched the VA and burned the valves. Only takes a really TIGHT valve a minute to burn. Loose valves will only clatter.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 236
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From: Plum, PA
when you say a tight valve do you mean tight as in valve adjustment or tight as in tight against the head? A tight valve being .011-.012 or .08-.010, Also what is the "edge" for when you start to have problems?
Thread Starter
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Read your first few comments then stopped.
There was nothing wrong with your car aside from noise and a CEL for 02 sensor...fact.
It is very rare for untouched s2k valves to tick. I doubt your ticking was due to valves.
It appears the guy seriously botched the VA and burned the valves. Only takes a really TIGHT valve a minute to burn. Loose valves will only clatter.
There was nothing wrong with your car aside from noise and a CEL for 02 sensor...fact.
It is very rare for untouched s2k valves to tick. I doubt your ticking was due to valves.
It appears the guy seriously botched the VA and burned the valves. Only takes a really TIGHT valve a minute to burn. Loose valves will only clatter.
On the ticking, do you think that it could be an injector sticking?
I see it as: dirty/sticking injectors > lean condition + botched VA > lean condition > burned valve > misfires
Does that make sense?
Originally Posted by Billman250' timestamp='1319062473' post='21084793
Only takes a really TIGHT valve a minute to burn. Loose valves will only clatter.
GET IT FIXED!!
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From: 13851 A Better Way #11D, Garden Grove, CA 92843
2000 S2000, 161k, third owner. Relatively stock. Only motor mod is a 70mm Invidia test pipe with anti-fouler fix. No CEL codes for that.
As of today, I have codes:
P0300 - Random Multiple Misfire
P0301 - Misfire Cylinder 1
P0302 - Misfire Cylinder 2
P0303 - Misfire Cylinder 3
P0304 - Misfire Cylinder 4
P1399 - Related to Random Misfire (checked on Honda-Tech and a member mentioned this: "p1399 is a random misfire code and honda has reported for various models that this could be caused by clogged egr ports, in addition there is the possibility that the valve clearance spec may be out of range"
As of today, I have codes:
P0300 - Random Multiple Misfire
P0301 - Misfire Cylinder 1
P0302 - Misfire Cylinder 2
P0303 - Misfire Cylinder 3
P0304 - Misfire Cylinder 4
P1399 - Related to Random Misfire (checked on Honda-Tech and a member mentioned this: "p1399 is a random misfire code and honda has reported for various models that this could be caused by clogged egr ports, in addition there is the possibility that the valve clearance spec may be out of range"
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From: Long Island, New York
Aside from anything, the compression test must prove healthy.
Having a large valve clearance will not cause any immediate damage per say...just noise.
If you think the compression test was done inaccurately, do it again. It appears what you did was close to good enough. The difference in your readings is the most important. Those numbers are quite bad.
When I say tight, I mean tight adjustmeant (small clearance).
Just run the car to 3 bars, then do the comp test immediately after. The rings will be oiled and valve issues will shine through on the comp test.
Having a large valve clearance will not cause any immediate damage per say...just noise.
If you think the compression test was done inaccurately, do it again. It appears what you did was close to good enough. The difference in your readings is the most important. Those numbers are quite bad.
When I say tight, I mean tight adjustmeant (small clearance).
Just run the car to 3 bars, then do the comp test immediately after. The rings will be oiled and valve issues will shine through on the comp test.
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:::UPDATE:::
We re-did the compression test and my numbers were a little better, but still poor.
Cylinder 1: 125
Cylinder 2: 225
Cylinder 3: 140
Cylinder 4: 240
Also, my buddy had some work done at the same shop as I had my valve adjustment done by. Same guy did it, too (my buddy's old friend).
Well, his friend had been doing crappy work and had been fired months ago. Shop owner wants to take a look at my car and see what he can do. Good news. I'm thinking it's probably a crapy valve lash adjustment and that bent some valves. Ticking noise from before is most likely a sticking injector IMO. What do you guys think?
We re-did the compression test and my numbers were a little better, but still poor.
Cylinder 1: 125
Cylinder 2: 225
Cylinder 3: 140
Cylinder 4: 240
Also, my buddy had some work done at the same shop as I had my valve adjustment done by. Same guy did it, too (my buddy's old friend).
Well, his friend had been doing crappy work and had been fired months ago. Shop owner wants to take a look at my car and see what he can do. Good news. I'm thinking it's probably a crapy valve lash adjustment and that bent some valves. Ticking noise from before is most likely a sticking injector IMO. What do you guys think?