Let me post some answers to Krazik's request for information on the Moton Dampers.

More info is available at http://www.kingmotorsports.com/products/moton or you can call Scott anytime. Better yet, if you are in Cali, check out the King cars at the Import Auto Salon... the black car has the Moton Dampers installed.

Here are the Dampers:


Notice there are two parts with a hose attaching them. The smaller part is the shock reservior, where the oil for the shock resides. This portion of the shock also controls the compression or 'bump' damping of the shock. The small canister is charged with Nitrogen, which keeps the oil from foaming and serves as a 'pre-load' adjustment. More Nitrogen pressure in the shock, more pre-load. There is a complex system of orifices and adjusters in the canister that control the flow of oil to the damper body. On triple-adjustable models, there are two knobs for compression damping. This is when the shock is 'closing' or under compression. There is a number associated to this force, and it is measures typically in Newtons/M. This varies depending on the speed at which the shock shaft is being compressed. Therefore, with three variables there is a three-axis graph for the shock for force, length and speed. On triple adjustable Motons, the high-speed and low-speed compression adjustments are individually adjustable. That means that when the shock is compressing slowly (big bumps in the road, etc.) it exhibits one damping force over a certain stroke length. At high speed (transitions, slaloms, etc.) when the piston is moving very quickly it follows a different damping curve over the stroke length.

The actual shock body has the piston and is what goes in place of the factory shock, while the above canister gets mounted in the engine compartment or trunk. The shock-body has threads to support coilover type springs, and at the top of the shaft is the rebound adjustment. On 2-way adjustable this is the 2nd (with all speed compression being the 1st) and on 3-way adjustables this is the 3rd (with high and low speed compression being 1st and 2nd). Rebound controls what the damping curve is while the shock is extended (while the shaft is pulling out.) Keep in mind, that even in a 2-way adjustable damper the high and low speed damping can be set indepedantly using different parts inside the damper. These shocks are so advanced that you can have pretty much any damping curve that you want. So Scott at King took his racing experience, combined it with his S2000 experience and told Moton what valving curves to use, and then offered them to the public. This shock is designed for a true racing application, but would be about the best damper that someone could use for their street car as well. The 22mm shaft size would ensure durability in event the most outrageous conditions.

Again, at the price these dampers aren't for everyone. But for those who want the best, here they are. The Penskes that we are getting for autocrossing aren't durable enough in my mind for the street. And give it a little thought, too... our cars are about as close as you can get to an IndyCar for the street. IndyCars are using 3-way adjustable dampers these days ($4000 each, $16k per set), so I think it's pretty cool that King is offering these for people who want to have it all. I hope that helps you understand them better, Krazik!

[Edited by Jason Saini on 02-07-2001 at 03:46 PM]

 

Doesn't the big shaft work against you in stock class AutoX? One of the benefits that King advertises is the ability to adjust ride height with nitrogen pressure. The thicker shaft magnifies this effect, but in stock AutoX classes, you can't adjust the springs, so the body rides higher due to the nitrogen pressure. Also, don't all race shocks trade longevity between rebuilds for performance?

 

Very true, Randy about the ride-height thing... one of the other reasons we didn't go with them for our autocross application. But the 22mm shaft does help, even in autocross because it displaces more fluid. Not quite sure of the physics behind it, but displacing more oil tends to make damping curves more repeatable. Again, not sure how this works but you can call Scott for a more indepth explanation. Also, these have less actual adjustment 'clicks' than a Penske for rebound, and more for compression. And Scott reported to me that on the Motorola-Cup cars one click actually made a difference in the feel and lap-times, where they always felt they were chasing the Penskes.

 

It looks like the PowerhouseAmuse/Blistein Hi-Tek Dampers also use a reservoir, but they are attached to the damper itself instead of using a hose. Are there any advantages/disadvantages in this design?

 

Not really any advantage or disadvantage to an attached reservior, because the hoses are really just to allow mounting of the canisters inside the car to make adjustments easier. Do the Amuse/Bilstiens have any adjustment? Keen eyes will notice that even the factory shocks on the Stook have a reservoir in the rear, but without any adjustment. The probably needed more oil volume to get the damping curve they wanted, and rather than a larger shock-body they added a remote oil reservior.

 

I believe another reason why they put more oil in a shock is for added heat capacity. The more oil you have, the more heat you can absorb before it starts to boil over.

 

thank you jason.

Right now the price is a bit outside by budget, but I was wondering what was so special about them.

But at somepoint in the future, my s2k is going to be a track/weekend car, and won't be on the street too much.

At that time, I will be looking for the best of everything

Thanks again.

 

Donut-

The added heat capacity is what makes the valve dampening repeatable and more stable under extreme conditions. Displacing more fluid allows for more controllable damping, heating up less, uses more surface area in the shim stacks for easier tuning, and ultimately allows the user to get closer, or spot on, to the damping the car requires without adjusting it constantly throughout a session. It comes down to this- over the span of a race, the damping will not change as drastically as some other shocks that don't displace as much fluid, and allows the race engineers to concentrate more on other parts of the car.

I've actually run into these kinds of problems before with TEIN HA dampers- they overheated way too quickly. I would start the lapping day on the middle of the settings, and by the end of the day we would run out of dampening force even at the stiffest setting. This was on the Type R- which is why I use the Mugen/Showa low down kit on that car now. I haven't had problems ever since, which is why I am very hesitant to recommend ANY TEIN product for ANY application, especially when comparing the kits visually, the TEIN "looks" much higher spec than the Mugen/Showa street kit. The most unusual thing about the Mugen/Showa kit was that they were much better on the street than the TEIN kit at the softest setting, yet on the track the Mugen/Showa kit could remain predictable and constant, whereas the TEIN set would lose damping. We actually encountered the exact same problem with my bigger car, but that was with a one grade lower TEIN kit. Swapping to Ohlins two way dampers with piggybacks cured the problem in that case, but since there was such a price difference I couldn't make a recommendation- the more expensive set had better outperform the cheaper kit!

I've seen the MOTON kit up close at King Motorsports, both before they were installed on the car, and after the installation. These are the real deal, and are worth it if that is what you absolutely need. If you need high speed and low speed compression dampening adjustment in addition to rebound, and feel that you have enough technical ability to balance those three factors along with customising the nitrogen charge within the shock, choosing the right springrates, play with ride height, and after all that, properly dial in the alignment, tire footprints and tire pressures, then you're pretty advanced and could probably use these shocks.

I know I have NO idea where to start with that kind of adjustablity, and would probably screw it up. I would probably need a good season or two of testing just to understand how to tune them effectively.

At the same time, if you're looking at getting a set of TEIN shock/spring sets that are near the price of the MOTON kits, I think it would be a no brainer- get the MOTON's! If you're going to invest that kind of money in a part, the MOTON kit is worth it. I strongly believe that there is no better kit that comes from Japan.

 

This is why you gotta love Nick. I've been following this thread, and the "other" now locked Moton thread. Up until now, I've had questions about this, and at times I was left with more questions than I started with.

But when Nick gets into the deal, he articulates so much technical knowledge into words that almost any abover average Joe can understand. I love it.

I never plan to get so heavily into racing to need equipment like this, but I am always willing to learn something.

Nick, before you get a big head and start requesting all of us to call you Professor Nick, there are times you leave me saying, "huh?, ok ,i guess" <--much of the time it's due to lack of my capacity to absorb concepts, though.

 

Hey people-

One more thing...

Penskes are not a bad choice at all. The biggest reason why Jason went with the Penske kit is because he had direct contact with technical assistance- which is why I always encourage people to contact the source of the parts for better information than what I, or any "rogue" operative here can provide. Penske custom built his team a shock set that they wanted, valved to their specs. That is WAY more important than what brand it is- it achieved the purpose, which is to provide the damping curves that Jason's team (Jason, Brad, and Juliann?) wanted.

I'm just excited that we, S2000 owners, have such a plethora of high quality race and street suspension kits to choose from, considering the limited availablity of the car. Perhaps this speaks volumes more about the poor suspension tuning from the factory. At least, relatively poor tuning for performance driving. Thank goodness the good stuff isn't outshone by the crap- like some kits for some Honda cars out there...